| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Jimbobx |
Posted - 19 Apr 2007 : 08:02:44
Would tomb robbing be considered an evil act or a chaotic act? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 10 May 2007 : 02:43:10
I just received the Cities of Bone boxed set, and tomb robbing is the only way to get the Dingus (well, both dinguseses, actually) needed in the encounter with the Necromancer King and Queen. You can't finish the adventure (alive) without robbing at least one tomb (or two), and the "reward" for successful completion of the mission will almost certainly contain tomb-looted treasures. (What do you expect from a Necromancer Queen?)
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| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 09 May 2007 : 22:08:44
I would have said neutral to chaotic on the Law/Chaos axis, and I'd likely say a little more neutral on the Good/Evil axis, but for those that aren't in the middle, probably on the good side of things, given that evil exceptional characters tend to end up as agents of various churches, power groups, or governments after a while.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 May 2007 : 17:21:10
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
. . . what is the standard alignment of most Realmsian adventurers?
All over the place, but I'd guess that the average tends notably towards chaotic and slightly towards good.
That sounds right to me... After all, a lot of Tymora's power comes from the fact that she is the patron of adventurers, and her alignment is CG. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 09 May 2007 : 16:18:32
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
. . . what is the standard alignment of most Realmsian adventurers?
All over the place, but I'd guess that the average tends notably towards chaotic and slightly towards good. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 09 May 2007 : 03:34:59
Agreed. Adventurers are seen by many people as "weird", regardless of what their intentions are. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 May 2007 : 02:25:18
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
BTW, off topic but -- what is the standard alignment of most Realmsian adventurers? I get tha idea that most of them are either Neutral (and selfish) or actively evil. That would explain why so many people in the setting are leery of adventurers...
Actually, I don't think it's because they're evil... Adventurers are a different breed from the common folk. Most common folk would never consider leaving the safety of their home to do something like venture into crumbling ruins... Baking bread is a hell of a lot safer than swinging a sword at an undead critter, and a bed is a lot more comfortable than a bedroll spread out next to a fire in the wilderness. Adventurers don't always respect the laws of the realm they're in, either. They may not all be rabble-rousers, but a casual disrespect for local laws and customs can certainly bother the natives. And many adventurers, no matter how good their intentions, have a habit of attracting trouble, wherever they go. The common folk can often be harmed by that trouble, and its certainly not something they can do anything about.
So adventurers don't have to be evil for common folk be leery of them... |
| Ardashir |
Posted - 09 May 2007 : 00:49:09
quote:
That's in The Temptation of Elminster, which I had to return to the Library before I finished reading it, and which is forbidden reading to my players because I know about salting tombs with items or lore (which may or may not be accurate), and don't want them discouraged by such knowledge (or -- worse! -- just knocking on El's door and asking for copies of buried items without having to rob ... er ... explore old sites).
I can just see some greedy adventurers doing that: "Hey, old wizard! We know all about that salting tombs with magic thing. We want some of that magic!"
Elminster: "Eh, of course, lads and lasses, of course!" [waves his hands and utters a few words, greedy adventurers vanish] "Well, I hope they enjoy traipsing around Undermountain's deepest levels. With luck they'll even find that wand of spellbolts I hid there a few centuries gone."
BTW, off topic but -- what is the standard alignment of most Realmsian adventurers? I get tha idea that most of them are either Neutral (and selfish) or actively evil. That would explain why so many people in the setting are leery of adventurers... |
| Drew.Davis |
Posted - 08 May 2007 : 18:10:38
My 2 cents...
If the character makes limits like not touching the skeleton or actual remains or only going for one item and its needed for a quest then no not chaotic nor evil |
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 03 May 2007 : 20:26:07
quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack
Great Discussion! I think it important to look at the Realms as a world where the dead do not often stay that way... Dead, that is! How many small villages in the Realm,s are within a few miles of old ruins or barrow-mounds? It is the classic low-level set-up. The villagers of Fribbly Thorpe have been suffering attacks late at night, and several villagers have been wounded or killed. Now, mind you, Fribbly Thorpe is too small to have a local priest or temple and they have gotten no response from the bigger town twenty miles south. Time to storm the crypts! Of course the tracks that the ranger found lead right to the old barrow-mound... This would be a common enough occurence in the Realm's that people may be O.K. with a little tomb despoiling. Better to investigate that old tomb than take a chance a nasty something is in there looking for a way out... Of course there are the cases where the raiders let the critter, curse or magical effect out...
Heheheheheh.... What a smashing idea that gives me: a self-willed undead, perhaps a true ghoul or a minor vampire, might travel from town to town wreaking havoc in the local boneyard -- that is until he is vanquished by a party of "heroes" -- who then split the take with the undead after "defeating" him in "mortal combat." Hey! Undead have expenses, too, ya know.... What a neat way for an evil party to make a "living."
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| ShadowJack |
Posted - 03 May 2007 : 18:45:32
Great Discussion! I think it important to look at the Realms as a world where the dead do not often stay that way... Dead, that is! How many small villages in the Realm,s are within a few miles of old ruins or barrow-mounds? It is the classic low-level set-up. The villagers of Fribbly Thorpe have been suffering attacks late at night, and several villagers have been wounded or killed. Now, mind you, Fribbly Thorpe is too small to have a local priest or temple and they have gotten no response from the bigger town twenty miles south. Time to storm the crypts! Of course the tracks that the ranger found lead right to the old barrow-mound... This would be a common enough occurence in the Realm's that people may be O.K. with a little tomb despoiling. Better to investigate that old tomb than take a chance a nasty something is in there looking for a way out... Of course there are the cases where the raiders let the critter, curse or magical effect out... |
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 30 Apr 2007 : 19:25:44
Ironically, I received an ad from the antiquities dealer, Sands of Time, today. They are currently hawking shabtis -- the worker figurines which were supposed to animate and do labor for the deceased in the "afterlife": http://www.dcancientart.com/products.asp?cat=41. Leaving aside the question of their pricing, one must face an undeniable fact: if these are genuine antiquities, they were stolen from tombs. Note particularly the sale of the shabtis for "The Osiris, lady of the house, the chantress of Amun, Nesy-ta-nebt-isheru, justified" (http://www.dcancientart.com/proddetail.asp?prod=EU609&cat=41); if they are genuine, they are probably most or all of the shabtis with which she was provided. One doesn't have to believe that shabtis actually animate to help the (un)dead in the "afterlife" to realize that SHE believed that, and her tomb was robbed of that which she would have considered among the most important items in her tomb. According to Egyptian religious beliefs, Nesy-ta-nebt-isheru is now without servants in the "afterlife," which doesn't mean only that she won't have her personal cosmetologist with her forever, it means that she will have to do all of the work which will sustain her eternally: growing and harvesting food, taking care of the house ... er ... tomb, preparing her vestments for her role as chanter to Amun, etc. That's what tomb-robbing implies to anyone who believes that burial goods are for the use of the dead in the "afterlife."
Ankh, Uta, Senb, Nesy-ta-nebt-isheru! 
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| dwarvenranger |
Posted - 27 Apr 2007 : 03:00:06
quote:
Originally posted by Wenin
quote:
Originally posted by dwarvenranger
Shards, Greyhawking is what makes the world go round, or at least spoils the local economy.
Shards?
What is Greyhawking?
Shards = Damm in dwarven vocabulary
Greyhawking (verb) The act of looting everyone and everything that is dead, forgotten or about to become that way. Derived from those who have been adventuring in Greyhawk and know that it's not only acceptable, but expected in that setting. |
| Gelcur |
Posted - 27 Apr 2007 : 02:37:41
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Ed actually dealt with this matter years ago (the acquiring of lore and magic from tombs, not non-magical treasure). Have a look at the second and third Elminster novels, in particular the scene of El "planting" magic in tombs (in accordance with Mystra's commands) for later arcane spellcasters to find.
love,
THO
Beat me to the punch I remembered reading that Chosen of Mystra would seed "dungeons"/tombs with magical goods for the worthy to find. If I also remember correctly this is how some new spells get introduced to the Realms. I could not remember where I had read it though.
I would guess going in and finding something is not evil per say but not lawful in most lands. My guess is the lawfulness as far as paladins go is what their god thinks of it. I'd think if the graves have fallen into disuse its fair game for good characters unless its blatantly obvious this isn't someone to be stealing from. A plaque that says high priest of Sune that's a hundred plus years old well maybe not the best idea to mess with. Of course there is one thing about perusing the body to find something you can use for the better good or to survive and another to defile the body.
I'd also note that I'd think disturbing someones burial before they made it to their gods plane, while they were in waiting would most likely spawn a ghost.
Just my 2 cents though. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Apr 2007 : 00:37:08
quote:
Originally posted by Aureus
I thought baelnorns were "goodly" lichs, if you knock and say hello, couldn't you talk with him and perhaps even borrow something (and give it back later) without seriously risking death, decay and eternal tornment
They are goodly... but that doesn't mean they're inclined to share. They could be especially disinclined to share something that belonged to their family. |
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 27 Apr 2007 : 00:13:24
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Ed actually dealt with this matter years ago (the acquiring of lore and magic from tombs, not non-magical treasure). Have a look at the second and third Elminster novels, in particular the scene of El "planting" magic in tombs (in accordance with Mystra's commands) for later arcane spellcasters to find.
love,
THO
That's in The Temptation of Elminster, which I had to return to the Library before I finished reading it, and which is forbidden reading to my players because I know about salting tombs with items or lore (which may or may not be accurate), and don't want them discouraged by such knowledge (or -- worse! -- just knocking on El's door and asking for copies of buried items without having to rob ... er ... explore old sites). Khelben's tomb-salting is a significant minor theme in the recent novel, Blackstaff. Mystra, obviously, views grave-robbing for magic as quite acceptable.
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| The Hooded One |
Posted - 26 Apr 2007 : 22:52:09
Ed actually dealt with this matter years ago (the acquiring of lore and magic from tombs, not non-magical treasure). Have a look at the second and third Elminster novels, in particular the scene of El "planting" magic in tombs (in accordance with Mystra's commands) for later arcane spellcasters to find.
love,
THO |
| Aureus |
Posted - 26 Apr 2007 : 21:01:49
I thought baelnorns were "goodly" lichs, if you knock and say hello, couldn't you talk with him and perhaps even borrow something (and give it back later) without seriously risking death, decay and eternal tornment |
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 25 Apr 2007 : 20:00:06
quote:
Originally posted by Jimbobx
Would tomb robbing be considered an evil act or a chaotic act?
I asked this a long time ago, specifically about acquiring lore ONLY from a tomb (e.g., copying the wall inscriptions), and the consensus was that as long as the lore itself was not part of the tomb-treasure, one wouldn't face divine wrath for popping in and just taking notes, especially if one fixed anything which was broken (by oneself or others) and left an appropriate offering for the dead (which would vary by culture, of course).
On the other hand, there are tombs which invoke the protection of beings who are now "dead" (Bhaal, for instance, or Ramman of the Realms, or Auppenser, who is not dead when he can eternal lie...). The big bug-a-boo there would be what's actually in in the tomb, guarding it. If there's no divinity to curse your actions as evil, maybe they aren't. Of course, some tombs are better tenanted than others -- I wouldn't suggest poking about in any old Elven crypts in Myth Drannor! (Does the phrase "baelnorn" mean anything to you? They would regard almost any trespass as an act worthy of death or worse. Some of the things in Evereskan tombs ought not to be disturbed ... ever!)
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| Wenin |
Posted - 25 Apr 2007 : 19:35:53
quote:
Originally posted by dwarvenranger
Shards, Greyhawking is what makes the world go round, or at least spoils the local economy.
Shards?
What is Greyhawking? |
| dwarvenranger |
Posted - 25 Apr 2007 : 16:57:58
Shards, Greyhawking is what makes the world go round, or at least spoils the local economy. |
| Wenin |
Posted - 23 Apr 2007 : 04:25:15
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
Just because it's known that the afterlife is real doesn't mean that there are fewer superstitions in the Realms. In fact, the opposite is probably true--in a world where there is tangible evidence of the god's favor and furor, where the restless dead walk, and where magic is real, superstition would be more prevalent, rather than less so.
You can't take it with you, but there is evidence everywhere of the dead being buried with their belongings, and all sorts of reasons for believing that the theft of a treasured possession won't disturb the slumber of the dead. Just because the spirit isn't in the body doesn't mean that people don't believe (or aren't correct in believing) that fooling with a body or a grave will wake the spirit in question.
Superstitions are an irrational belief in something. When Gods are real, and interact with the world... such beliefs become less irrational. =) Then you have some superstitions that exist in our world, would be considered to be a ceremony or a prayer in a world where gods really exist. Why place your d20 so its 20 is facing up, when you could say a prayer to Tymora? =)
Superstitions like "throwing salt over one's shoulder", would likely have a much more real tie within a fantasy world. Perhaps throwing salt over the shoulder is part of an actual spell that wards off evil spirits. If it wasn't, why would someone waste good salt, when there is "real" knowledge of what it takes to ward off evil spirits? =)
Also fewer doesn't mean none, or nearly non-existant.
"It isn't paranoia if they're actually after you."
That is the core of the question here. What is the "reality" of this topic in the fantasy world of the Realms? What came first, the need for adventurers (PCs) to have loot to umm loot, or the answer to the question of why people are buried with "treasure"? =) As far as the game of DnD goes, the answer is clearly that the need for loot existed long before this question would have been asked. =)
As for ghosts having images of their items, and the raising of undead disturbing the dead.... well that's a different topic altogether, and I doubt there is much debate within that topic. Ghosts exist between the land of the dead and the living. Them having images of their items wouldn't be surprising.
Now for those that are truely dead, and say you visit them through planar travelling... they certainly aren't naked. Are they clothed in the articles that they were buried in? If they are, and someone was to "steal" one of those items, is the item then no longer on the "dead" person. If you were to take the clothes off a corpse, would the spirit suddenly become naked? =) hehehe I doubt this is true. Extend this to their weapons and armor.
Like I said, a very interesting topic, that I bet most DMs don't consider. I don't even know if I want to consider it any further than this forum. =)
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| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 23 Apr 2007 : 02:23:30
Given the fact that some undead seem to have spectral versions of the items they owned in life, I'd say that there could still very well be something to the idea that people beleive that someone may have items they are buried with in the afterlife. And even people that believe they are heading for a "good" afterlife likely know stories about demon's raiding other planes, or the stories of Kezef eating souls in the afterlife, so being armed isn't a bad idea.
Also, if I remember correctly, the 1st edition Lord of Darkness mentioned that one of the reasons that good people avoid animating skeletons and zombies (even though its not automatically an evil act back then the way it is now) is that when a person's remains are disturbed, often even a soul in the afterlife can feel this, and as such, animating their bodies will disturb their "peace" in the hereafter. I'd imagine this might be true of taking their stuff or using their body parts for clubs or whatever else might happen to their remains. |
| Garen Thal |
Posted - 23 Apr 2007 : 02:18:48
quote:
Originally posted by Wenin
Remember that there are fewer superstitions within the Realms than within the real world. In the Realms it is known that the dead do not rest within a tomb, only the undead. There is an actual afterlife, which has no connection to the physical world when it comes to spirit and body.
- It is known you can't take it with you. Would they even be buried with anything??
- Tombs are tied to religious ceremonies, and in the realms the gods religions worship are REAL
Just because it's known that the afterlife is real doesn't mean that there are fewer superstitions in the Realms. In fact, the opposite is probably true--in a world where there is tangible evidence of the god's favor and furor, where the restless dead walk, and where magic is real, superstition would be more prevalent, rather than less so.
You can't take it with you, but there is evidence everywhere of the dead being buried with their belongings, and all sorts of reasons for believing that the theft of a treasured possession won't disturb the slumber of the dead. Just because the spirit isn't in the body doesn't mean that people don't believe (or aren't correct in believing) that fooling with a body or a grave will wake the spirit in question. |
| Wenin |
Posted - 23 Apr 2007 : 02:08:47
This is an interesting topic!!
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
Robbing a tomb, however, is rightly considered both chaotic (theft, disruption of rightful order, etc.) and evil (disturbing the rest of the dead).
Remember that there are fewer superstitions within the Realms than within the real world. In the Realms it is known that the dead do not rest within a tomb, only the undead. There is an actual afterlife, which has no connection to the physical world when it comes to spirit and body.
- It is known you can't take it with you. Would they even be buried with anything??
- Tombs are tied to religious ceremonies, and in the realms the gods religions worship are REAL
This topic and one about "good" guys raiding orc villages/caverns.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 23 Apr 2007 : 01:02:29
The July 9, 2005 reply, perhaps?
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| Kuje |
Posted - 23 Apr 2007 : 00:49:43
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
I seem to recall that Ed has also answered this topic here at Candlekeep?
He did but I couldn't find it when I went lookin for it. It's in my files.... somewhere. :) Usually I can find the replies but I tried many different keywords and didn't find it. I remember what I was thinking of, it was a post in 2005 about salvage rights and there is another post about tomb raiding but in Mulhorand.
See the August 5th, 2005 reply.
Well, that was one of them that I mentioned but there was another, which was the salvage rights one. :) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 23 Apr 2007 : 00:11:25
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
I seem to recall that Ed has also answered this topic here at Candlekeep?
He did but I couldn't find it when I went lookin for it. It's in my files.... somewhere. :) Usually I can find the replies but I tried many different keywords and didn't find it. I remember what I was thinking of, it was a post in 2005 about salvage rights and there is another post about tomb raiding but in Mulhorand.
See the August 5th, 2005 reply.
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| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 22 Apr 2007 : 20:52:56
I agree with those who say that "tomb robbing" is neither inherently evil or inherently chaotic. And of course, it seems to me that much this game revolves around taking stuff off of those who are too dead to use it anymore, so making "tomb raiding" taboo might make some aspects of the game less fun. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 22 Apr 2007 : 20:16:18
Well, the practise of burying the dead with possessions will usually be a sign of a belief that the dead will have some use of these in the next life. These are buried with them for a purpose and a very good one would be needed for it to be justifiable to loosen that bond. I agree that an artifact used in the battle of evil could be removed with either the blessings of priest or by risking the anger of the dead, but if you take the silver beakers and the jeweled box by the body it is a different story. |
| Grehnar |
Posted - 22 Apr 2007 : 20:15:07
Oh, there are always exceptions and excuses can often be found.
I recently gave my lot the task of a bit of tomb robbing. However, they were hired by one of the descendants of the occupants. Said occupants were either a bit too mobile or were essentially lunch for these undead. As the decendant was now poor, he had nothing to pay the party with except some of what they could find. Though they were not given complete freedom, a bit of slack every now and then can be quite refreshing and this one-off went down well. It felt very old-school.
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