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Jimbobx
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
109 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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Halidan
Senior Scribe
USA
470 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Apr 2007 : 14:04:15
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For the Lawful/Chaotic part, I think it would mostly depend on who you're doing the robbing for. Let's face it, in our own world, most of the great museums of the 18th and 19th century sponsored/hired an awful lot of tomb robbers - and it was fully legal under the laws of the time.
As for the evil axis of the equasion, I'd have to agree in almost all cases that it would be an evil act. I supose it might be considered selfish/neutral by some, but I'm not buying it in most cases. |
"Over the Mountains
Of the Moon
Down the Valley of the Shadow,
Ride, boldly ride,"
The shade replied,
"If you seek for Eldorado!"
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
728 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2007 : 14:53:53
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| I'd say it depends on why you're "robbing" the tomb. If you're robbing the tomb of some evil character to prevent a certain item from landing in the wrong hands, it might even be a lawful/good act -- a la Lara Croft. |
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Jimbobx
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
109 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2007 : 15:21:46
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Thanks for the input. I'm erring towards the 'both' argument.
I think everyone would agree that a Paladin opening random coffins is unacceptable even with the veiled justification of "searching for undead"
Which leads me to another point...Did I read somewhere that Paladin's are not allowed to use range weapons as they are deemed cowardly? |
Rilyetan's Retreat
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2007 : 16:38:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Jimbobx
Thanks for the input. I'm erring towards the 'both' argument.
I think everyone would agree that a Paladin opening random coffins is unacceptable even with the veiled justification of "searching for undead"
Which leads me to another point...Did I read somewhere that Paladin's are not allowed to use range weapons as they are deemed cowardly?
Its not something that would be seen as uniformly part of the paladin's code. To use a non-FR source, Races of the Wild actually gives a substitution level to elven paladins that lets them smite foes that they shoot with a bow.
I'm not sure, but I do seem to remember that there might have been a source in 1st or 2nd edition that intimated this (it may have been the cavalier's code of conduct from Uneathed Arcana way back in 1st edition, but I'm at work, so I can't say definatively). At any rate, I don't think that this has been "in effect" for quite a while, and I'm not certain that Realmsian paladins were ever really portrayed in this manner (though I could be wrong). |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2007 : 17:30:03
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There was a knightly code presented in the old FRA... From pages 2 and 3 of that resource, in the section under "Cavaliers":
quote:
The knightly code, as recognized in the Realms, is as follows, rated from most generally important to those of lesser (but still critical) import.
- Defend any responsibility given, even unto death;
- A knight's word is his law;
- Show courage in all things;
- Show honor to those above one's station;
- Earn respect from those below one's station;
- Leadership is the responsibility of the high-born and the fit;
- Battle is the test of worth (this is rated higher by those knights who strongly venerate Tempus);
- Be courteous to all women (or all men, depending on the sex of the former cavalier);
- Bring death to those who raise their weapons against a knight or those entrusted into the knight's protection;
- Choose death before dishonor.
The same section also noted the knightly virtues:
quote:
The knightly virtues in the Realms are:
Honor
Bravery
Glory
Good faith
Unselfishness
Courtesy
Pride in self and others
And this is my 10,000th post!  |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2007 : 17:33:16
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
quote:
Originally posted by Jimbobx
Thanks for the input. I'm erring towards the 'both' argument.
I think everyone would agree that a Paladin opening random coffins is unacceptable even with the veiled justification of "searching for undead"
Which leads me to another point...Did I read somewhere that Paladin's are not allowed to use range weapons as they are deemed cowardly?
Its not something that would be seen as uniformly part of the paladin's code. To use a non-FR source, Races of the Wild actually gives a substitution level to elven paladins that lets them smite foes that they shoot with a bow.
I'm not sure, but I do seem to remember that there might have been a source in 1st or 2nd edition that intimated this (it may have been the cavalier's code of conduct from Uneathed Arcana way back in 1st edition, but I'm at work, so I can't say definatively). At any rate, I don't think that this has been "in effect" for quite a while, and I'm not certain that Realmsian paladins were ever really portrayed in this manner (though I could be wrong).
The Cavalier's Code from 1E Unearthed Arcana does sound like it.
As to Paladins using or not using Ranged Weapons, I would personally say that depended on the God they followed and the Order they belonged to.
As to game examples, Paladins in the World of Warcraft MMO can't use ANY Ranged weapons at all. Their only ranged attack is some of their spells and I have found those to be very very short ranged. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2007 : 17:40:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Jimbobx
Would tomb robbing be considered an evil act or a chaotic act?
If one raids a tomb to recover something stiolen from them it clearly would not be an evil or chaotic act. The circumstance, the reason of the act, are required to determine if an act is good or evil.
In general most would consider it evil to dig up a grave on purpose.
Clearly it would be chaotic to dig up a grave if there was a law, or even social/culture custom, that graves should not be dug up.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2007 : 20:15:19
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| There was a Paladin on BG2 who couldn't use ranged weapons. It was on of the kits |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
573 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2007 : 21:23:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Jimbobx
Thanks for the input. I'm erring towards the 'both' argument.
I think everyone would agree that a Paladin opening random coffins is unacceptable even with the veiled justification of "searching for undead"
Which leads me to another point...Did I read somewhere that Paladin's are not allowed to use range weapons as they are deemed cowardly?
This restriction applied to 1E Cavaliers, as described in Unearthed Arcana. By default this also applied to the Cavalier Paladin (which was a subclass of the first), but I don't recall it applying to the regular paladin.
By tradition many DMs (including myself) tended to hold on to this restriction in 2E though the issue was never specifically addressed. |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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boddynock
Learned Scribe
Belgium
258 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2007 : 21:29:45
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| Walkerninja, the restriction was specifically addressed in second edition too. I suppose it was mentioned in the fighter's handbook, but I'm not sure if that book is the source-book. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2007 : 22:52:09
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quote:
Originally posted by boddynock
Walkerninja, the restriction was specifically addressed in second edition too. I suppose it was mentioned in the fighter's handbook, but I'm not sure if that book is the source-book.
I'm not familiar with any such restriction... In fact, according to the 2E Player's Handbook (in the class description of paladins):
quote:
He can use any weapon and wear any type of armor.
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2007 : 00:55:30
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| This is one of the themes that's lurked in the background since the Realms was first published. Robbing tombs is frowned upon as a dirty, shiversome business, but it's a 'normal' part of what adventurers do, which is semi-accepted as a whole. But people tend not to like you robbing 'their' tombs: someone's grandmother's grave, or that of a respected figure of the past, is seen differently from a necromancer's tomb or one of a fallen or foreign civilization. It isn't inherently chaotic, though it may be against local laws, or evil, though it might be if it causes grief. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2007 : 03:53:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
This is one of the themes that's lurked in the background since the Realms was first published. Robbing tombs is frowned upon as a dirty, shiversome business, but it's a 'normal' part of what adventurers do, which is semi-accepted as a whole. But people tend not to like you robbing 'their' tombs: someone's grandmother's grave, or that of a respected figure of the past, is seen differently from a necromancer's tomb or one of a fallen or foreign civilization. It isn't inherently chaotic, though it may be against local laws, or evil, though it might be if it causes grief.
Like Beauty, Law is often in the Eye of the Beholder...   |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2007 : 11:41:43
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Well, I would say it was an evil and/or chaotic act in most cases, especially without a good reason (greed not being one) and the blessings of a priest of some sort. The priest being of a faith either tied to the grave itself, a deity of the dead or one with a religious purpose in opening the grave.
The whole concept of grave-robbing becomes a little ambivalent as the tomes are so tied up with the ideas of dungeons and the looting of these and therefore a little outside the ideas of alignment.
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2007 : 17:20:36
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| I seem to recall that Ed has also answered this topic here at Candlekeep? |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2007 : 17:58:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
I seem to recall that Ed has also answered this topic here at Candlekeep?
He did but I couldn't find it when I went lookin for it. It's in my files.... somewhere. :) Usually I can find the replies but I tried many different keywords and didn't find it. I remember what I was thinking of, it was a post in 2005 about salvage rights and there is another post about tomb raiding but in Mulhorand. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 22 Apr 2007 18:08:58 |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2007 : 18:09:46
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Entering or investigating a tomb is neither inherently chaotic nor evil, if done with proper reverence for the dead and the rituals surrounding their burial.
Robbing a tomb, however, is rightly considered both chaotic (theft, disruption of rightful order, etc.) and evil (disturbing the rest of the dead).
Adventurers might enter a tomb for any number of reasons: to lay to rest a risen spirit, to investigate thieves or other criminals that are using the tomb as a hideout, to seek the wisdom of the dead, or to recover some ancient, powerful relic that is the only key to solving a current crisis. All of these actions, however, should be performed with an eye toward treating the deceased with respect and disturbing as little of the environs as possible. Even if attacked by skeletons and such, these are someone's honored dead, or were, once, and should be treated with reverence and--if at all possible--not just destroyed but restored to their proper rest before the adventurers move on with their quest. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2007 : 18:49:10
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"or to recover some ancient, powerful relic that is the only key to solving a current crisis." would still appear to be robbing a tomb. One might argue that barrowing, with intent to return, is ok, however one can also argue taking even from the dead a short time is still evil.
D&D in many ways was based on robbing the dead, those orcs with their 4 gold pieces (in first edition), that are killed. Often such killing and recovery was clearly permitted as lawful and good actions. It was in first Edition virtually a requirement to rob the dead to stand any chance of paying for training to gain a level.
Yes the Edition has changed, but robbing the recently made dead is often aceptible. Therefore it makes little sense that robbing some long tern dead as less acceptible.
Alignment always has been based on the intent for doing an action, not the action itself (of course some actions clearly have an evil or chaotic intent per the ruleset). |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2007 : 19:02:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
"or to recover some ancient, powerful relic that is the only key to solving a current crisis." would still appear to be robbing a tomb. One might argue that barrowing, with intent to return, is ok, however one can also argue taking even from the dead a short time is still evil.
One might argue that, but I'd have to disagree. I probably wasn't clear to begin with, though.
I'm not talking about grabbing the sword of the recently-fallen king to battle an evil sorcerous usurper, because the blade is known to be a powerful weapon. I'm talking about recovering the Ruby Mace of Lathander from the tomb of Kal Whitehands, paladin-hero of the faith, and undergoing tests designed to prove that the entrance of such a sainted servant is warranted, and that the questor is worthy. Or receiving the blessing of the departed (or his heirs) before waltzing in and taking what's necessary.
There are things you can do to keep from offending the dead or those they leave behind. Just because you remove something from a tomb doesn't mean that you're stealing it. |
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Aureus
Learned Scribe
Luxembourg
125 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2007 : 19:30:05
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stealing has a connotation of greet, it has not been really stolen if it has not
in my eyes goodly dead wouldn't mind their stuff being used for good ends, IMO they would even want the heros to use their legacy to battle evil, after all they ARE dead and have no use for it so why not use it for something good? Of course if the dead were/are evil they would be very angry and that makes a good plot hook ;) , with those it wouldn't make any diffrence, most evil people are too selfish to give their stuff to anyone. (not all evil are egoists as such, just sadists, I think that is a main diffrence between NE and CE) |
That is not the weirdest thing that happened to me |
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Grehnar
Acolyte
United Kingdom
44 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2007 : 20:15:07
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Oh, there are always exceptions and excuses can often be found.
I recently gave my lot the task of a bit of tomb robbing. However, they were hired by one of the descendants of the occupants. Said occupants were either a bit too mobile or were essentially lunch for these undead. As the decendant was now poor, he had nothing to pay the party with except some of what they could find. Though they were not given complete freedom, a bit of slack every now and then can be quite refreshing and this one-off went down well. It felt very old-school.
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2007 : 20:16:18
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| Well, the practise of burying the dead with possessions will usually be a sign of a belief that the dead will have some use of these in the next life. These are buried with them for a purpose and a very good one would be needed for it to be justifiable to loosen that bond. I agree that an artifact used in the battle of evil could be removed with either the blessings of priest or by risking the anger of the dead, but if you take the silver beakers and the jeweled box by the body it is a different story. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2007 : 20:52:56
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| I agree with those who say that "tomb robbing" is neither inherently evil or inherently chaotic. And of course, it seems to me that much this game revolves around taking stuff off of those who are too dead to use it anymore, so making "tomb raiding" taboo might make some aspects of the game less fun. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2007 : 00:11:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
I seem to recall that Ed has also answered this topic here at Candlekeep?
He did but I couldn't find it when I went lookin for it. It's in my files.... somewhere. :) Usually I can find the replies but I tried many different keywords and didn't find it. I remember what I was thinking of, it was a post in 2005 about salvage rights and there is another post about tomb raiding but in Mulhorand.
See the August 5th, 2005 reply.
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2007 : 00:49:43
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
I seem to recall that Ed has also answered this topic here at Candlekeep?
He did but I couldn't find it when I went lookin for it. It's in my files.... somewhere. :) Usually I can find the replies but I tried many different keywords and didn't find it. I remember what I was thinking of, it was a post in 2005 about salvage rights and there is another post about tomb raiding but in Mulhorand.
See the August 5th, 2005 reply.
Well, that was one of them that I mentioned but there was another, which was the salvage rights one. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2007 : 02:08:47
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This is an interesting topic!!
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
Robbing a tomb, however, is rightly considered both chaotic (theft, disruption of rightful order, etc.) and evil (disturbing the rest of the dead).
Remember that there are fewer superstitions within the Realms than within the real world. In the Realms it is known that the dead do not rest within a tomb, only the undead. There is an actual afterlife, which has no connection to the physical world when it comes to spirit and body.
- It is known you can't take it with you. Would they even be buried with anything??
- Tombs are tied to religious ceremonies, and in the realms the gods religions worship are REAL
This topic and one about "good" guys raiding orc villages/caverns.
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Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
Edited by - Wenin on 23 Apr 2007 02:13:54 |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2007 : 02:18:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Wenin
Remember that there are fewer superstitions within the Realms than within the real world. In the Realms it is known that the dead do not rest within a tomb, only the undead. There is an actual afterlife, which has no connection to the physical world when it comes to spirit and body.
- It is known you can't take it with you. Would they even be buried with anything??
- Tombs are tied to religious ceremonies, and in the realms the gods religions worship are REAL
Just because it's known that the afterlife is real doesn't mean that there are fewer superstitions in the Realms. In fact, the opposite is probably true--in a world where there is tangible evidence of the god's favor and furor, where the restless dead walk, and where magic is real, superstition would be more prevalent, rather than less so.
You can't take it with you, but there is evidence everywhere of the dead being buried with their belongings, and all sorts of reasons for believing that the theft of a treasured possession won't disturb the slumber of the dead. Just because the spirit isn't in the body doesn't mean that people don't believe (or aren't correct in believing) that fooling with a body or a grave will wake the spirit in question. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2007 : 02:23:30
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Given the fact that some undead seem to have spectral versions of the items they owned in life, I'd say that there could still very well be something to the idea that people beleive that someone may have items they are buried with in the afterlife. And even people that believe they are heading for a "good" afterlife likely know stories about demon's raiding other planes, or the stories of Kezef eating souls in the afterlife, so being armed isn't a bad idea.
Also, if I remember correctly, the 1st edition Lord of Darkness mentioned that one of the reasons that good people avoid animating skeletons and zombies (even though its not automatically an evil act back then the way it is now) is that when a person's remains are disturbed, often even a soul in the afterlife can feel this, and as such, animating their bodies will disturb their "peace" in the hereafter. I'd imagine this might be true of taking their stuff or using their body parts for clubs or whatever else might happen to their remains. |
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Tomb robbing
