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Njord
Acolyte
USA
7 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Nov 2006 : 13:27:53
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How do you incorperate magic into the setting as a whole i.e. what is the effect it has on economics, trade, communication, etc.? I am having trouble wrapping my head around how to make magic special and yet if it is everywhere how is it used for the everyday problems of the sentient races in FR. How do you practicaly apply magic in the Realms? Or should you at all?
From the responses I have gotten on the WOTC boards I gather that most of magic is still a closly guarded secret and not so common as the FRCS makes it out to be. They directed be to Volo's Guides. Which ones do you recomend?
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Faramicos
Senior Scribe
Denmark
468 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2006 : 14:20:26
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| I play magic as being rare and not openly used on a daily basis... most common citizens have never seen magic in effect and will act fearfull if put face to face with it. The only places where magic is encountered in the daily life is in the churches and they are not throwing it around every day. Their magic is a symbol of their religion and treated according to that. |
"When dragons make war, worlds can only tremble in the shadow of angry wings" |
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1072 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2006 : 17:16:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Njord
How do you incorperate magic into the setting as a whole i.e. what is the effect it has on economics, trade, communication, etc.? I am having trouble wrapping my head around how to make magic special and yet if it is everywhere how is it used for the everyday problems of the sentient races in FR. How do you practicaly apply magic in the Realms? Or should you at all?
From the responses I have gotten on the WOTC boards I gather that most of magic is still a closly guarded secret and not so common as the FRCS makes it out to be. They directed be to Volo's Guides. Which ones do you recomend?
Most of the Volo's Guides can be downloaded for free from the Wizards downloads page. The ones not available are Volo's Guide to Waterdeep, and Volo's Guide to Baldur's Gate II. The former, you can get the pdf for $4 from Paizo.com; the latter is not available as a pdf (and the name refers to the computer game, not to being a second guide to that region).
My favorites from the series are Volo's Guide to Waterdeep and Volo's Guide to All Things Magical (formerly a suppressed work  ).
I think the most important thing to remember is that magic takes a lot of time and study to master, and there's a relatively small number of people that have both the time and the opportunity. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 08 Nov 2006 17:18:49 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2006 : 17:22:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Njord
How do you incorperate magic into the setting as a whole i.e. what is the effect it has on economics, trade, communication, etc.? I am having trouble wrapping my head around how to make magic special and yet if it is everywhere how is it used for the everyday problems of the sentient races in FR. How do you practicaly apply magic in the Realms? Or should you at all?
From the responses I have gotten on the WOTC boards I gather that most of magic is still a closly guarded secret and not so common as the FRCS makes it out to be. They directed be to Volo's Guides. Which ones do you recomend?
Most of the Volo's Guides can be downloaded for free from the Wizards downloads page. The ones not available are Volo's Guide to Waterdeep, and Volo's Guide to Baldur's Gate II. The former, you can get the pdf for $4 from Paizo.com; the latter is not available as a pdf (and the name refers to the computer game, not to being a second guide to that region).
My favorites from the series are Volo's Guide to Waterdeep and Volo's Guide to All Things Magical (formerly a suppressed work ).
I think the most important thing to remember is that magic takes a lot of time and study to master, and there's a relatively small number of people that have both the time and the opportunity.
In fact the various Volo's guide show that magic in FR is far more common and used as "technology" than the FRCS. If you want esoteric, detrimental magic, the Realms may be not suited for you |
Edited by - Skeptic on 08 Nov 2006 17:23:50 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2006 : 17:27:08
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| I taken the middle ground in this, some sorts of minor magics are common, lesser labouring wizards in urban areas and hedge wizards in the wilds. I will usually lessen the power level of the wizards somewhat. Much of this comes natural as I use a non-D&D system to play the realms. The general feel will be more like the Gray box than the newer books. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2006 : 17:28:23
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I'll repeat my reply that Njord mentions:quote:
Can't answer this in less than an essay. But look at the Volo's Guides to start with. In short, it's been worked out in a lot of detail behind the scenes but isn't stressed in the sources because they focus on macroscopic depictions and on adventuring.
While magic is found in many places, there are only so many spell-casters and most of them are minor hedge-wizards and wisewomen. Also, remember that Realms folk don't suffer from the modern urban Western resistance to wonder; folk wonder at the sunrise, which happens every day.
Almost everyone has seen magic: whether curing of disease by the local healer, agricultural priests blessing the harvest, faerie fire lighting a noble's mansion, a mage-for-hire levitating goods across a river. But like the sunrise, and anything real, it gets no less awe-inspiring with repetition. As well as the relatively small number of spell-casters, people have no illusions that it's something they could duplicate, even with training. It's the domain of the gifted and the fey, and mages are often held in suspicion because so many of them abuse their Art for selfish gain.
How common do you think the FRCS makes it out to be?
Magic has many uses: civic, domestic, agricultural, ritual, entertainment, academic, crafting and trade, medical, military, espionage... Each of these is a big subject in its own right. And then you get to how to DM magic, how best to depict this literal continuity in play. |
Edited by - Faraer on 08 Nov 2006 23:17:08 |
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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2006 : 18:08:18
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| I disagree with you Faraer. Ed has stated that most people don't see magic on a day to day basis. Of course it depends on the location, but I really like to play where the commoners don't have experience with magic. I think alchemy takes the place of mundane uses. Many commoners might believe alchemy is magic... but either way I think its rare. |
"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."
-Judge Brinkema |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2006 : 18:24:48
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You have to remember that spells cost money, time and effort. A spell that you use to dry your clothes might be needed to distract a guard later. A magic-user is less likely to cast spells unless they need it or unless they are paid very well for it (or given perks).
The same with Magic Items as those need Gold and XP. (Which explained the idea of creating a higher level character for a higher level campaign and giving them crafting feats that he can spend XP for Bonus gear).
That is why you will see more magic items for Kings and their armies than for the commoner. Fewer Flaming Scythes +2 than Sword +1.
That might make magic rarer as it is kept by magic users and by the rich and nobled. Then add Dragons and the such and it gets rarer. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2006 : 18:59:01
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It's not every day, or every week, but everything I mentioned is directly attested, often in considerable albeit scattered detail, in the sources.
In the case of healing and curing, there aren't enough priests to deal with most ailments this way, but there are enough that even people who haven't received this kind of divine aid at some time have a relative who has. The sources don't indicate that alchemy is any more common than (other kinds of) magic; though herblore is.
One of the most interesting, yet sparsely detailed, uses of magic is the blessing of new enterprises and rites of passage like births, marriages and deaths. |
Edited by - Faraer on 08 Nov 2006 19:00:50 |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2006 : 19:18:32
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does this topic of convo include the new Wallmarts of Thay spreading accross the country side?
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2006 : 19:24:50
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| I fear so. But -- given that I don't believe it's possible to make magic items as easily as the 3E rules state, or that so many governments would be so stupid as to host Thayan enclaves -- someone other than me will have to try to rationalize how they fit into the established magical ecology. |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2006 : 19:32:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
...or that so many governments would be so stupid as to host Thayan enclaves...
I'v heard the "greedy peoples and governments wanting magics" argument before...but this fact, above any other, makes me dislike the Thayan retcon...it makes absolutely no sense...
if a horrible group of tyrants and slavers who make no illusion they want to conquer the world suddenly get into selling magical items real cheap...would any settlement let them not only set up shop but actually make a diplomatic ambassy/store-warehouse complex to do so? 
anywho...like I said in that other scroll..there are feats out there (WotC or otherwise) that allow faster magical item creation...liek the artificer class from eberron...
using that XP draining feat...I can see the Thayans with scores of victims underground being drained to death to creat all those "cheap and handy" magical items... |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Njord
Acolyte
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2006 : 20:36:30
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The reason I originally posted this was because I have been reading alot on Eberron lately and was wondering what good reasons in the lore FR had for less widespead magic and how DM's answer the question when players ask.
Places like Thay and Haluura aside most people in the realms avoid magic users like a soccer mom avoids the goth kids in the mall. They make her uncomfortable, "They might be evil but I am not going to kill them." That suspicion directs people away from seekign their help when crops are failing or they need to commuicate with someone far away. I think I am begining to get it.
In FR magic is alot more mystical (ala LOTR) and less technological (Eberron)
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2006 : 20:43:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Njord
Places like Thay and Haluura aside most people in the realms avoid magic users like a soccer mom avoids the goth kids in the mall. They make her uncomfortable, "They might be evil but I am not going to kill them." That suspicion directs people away from seekign their help when crops are failing or they need to commuicate with someone far away. I think I am begining to get it.
I don't agree with that at all...read any of the older Realms novels...I can't remember (other than those Luthchec [sp?] lunatics) anyone who "feared" magic...I think there is more a feeling ranging from wonder to blase...
they may avoid a magic user for the same reason a gunslinger was avoided in the west..they didn't fear the guns, they feared the weilder of the guns...but they wouldn't fear the noble marshal who protected them...
I think any farmer in the Realms would be considered a fool by other farmers if he turned down magical aid to grow their crops  |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2006 : 21:39:36
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One reason this is such a big and nuanced subject is that it touches on the moral use of Art, and how folk feel about wizards, which is one of the big ongoing themes of Ed's Realms work.quote:
“Well,” Shandril asked, “why should such a creature be destroyed? Doesn’t it leash dangerous art?”
“Fair question,” Florin replied. “Others might answer you differently, but I say we need art. There are prices to be paid for it, but the shrewd use of the magical art helps a great many people. The threat of art rising, unlocked for, keeps many a tyrant sword from taking what can be taken by brute force.”
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
573 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2006 : 21:53:23
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There is a short story in the Best of the Realms (it originally appeared in Realms of Shadow, I think) that show an under-developed people clearly mistrustful of Tanthul. They also do not have a resident magic user.
I think that I also am of the middle road. Magic would certainly be a bit more common and tolerated in large cities, but might be a rarity in rural ones (the Shadowdale being a notable exception to that).
The following analogy might be a bit... edgy... but it is honestly intended. Think of Magic in Faerun like Homosexuality in America. At the age of 27, and in the moderately large Texas city of Corpus Christi, I have only personally met three homo-sexuals, but have seen homo-sexual conduct occasionally (but certainly not with regularity). Still, I am aware of it. I do not fear it (though a section of the citizens in my city might), nor do I condemn it. I will confess that public displays might make me unconfortable, but that is only because it is not commonplace in my region.
By contrast, I am also aware of the notorious reputation of San Francisco. From what I hear, there are Wizards... er... homosexuals on every street corner, and they often have parades. I understand that they even have their own night clubs. To me, this seems very strange, and open-minded though I am, it might influence my decision whether or not to go visit.
The way I think about San Francisco (in relation to the topic) might be comparable to how the average Faerunian might think of Halruaa. "A strange place, where strange things happen. Yes, yes, I know that we have folks like that here too, but its not one of the places that I'd love to see anytime soon."
So if I, a member of a relatively large community in middle America think this way, how might a person from an even smaller town think? A person that is even less exposed to this phenomena than my own admittedly scant experience?
All that being said, I feel I must now offer an apology (a defense). I am not homophobic, nor do I think that all of those folks are bound for hell. As I said, this illustration is honestly intended. I hope that it is read as I have intended. |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
Edited by - WalkerNinja on 08 Nov 2006 21:56:38 |
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Archwizard
Learned Scribe
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2006 : 21:54:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Njord
The reason I originally posted this was because I have been reading alot on Eberron lately and was wondering what good reasons in the lore FR had for less widespead magic and how DM's answer the question when players ask.
Places like Thay and Haluura aside most people in the realms avoid magic users like a soccer mom avoids the goth kids in the mall. They make her uncomfortable, "They might be evil but I am not going to kill them." That suspicion directs people away from seekign their help when crops are failing or they need to commuicate with someone far away. I think I am begining to get it.
In FR magic is alot more mystical (ala LOTR) and less technological (Eberron)
I think one of the reasons is that Eberron has the Artificer and Magewright classes, which are based almost solely around magical item creation. They flood the Eberron markets with cheap low level magical items, giving the setting the appearance of a technologically/magically advanced setting.
That is not to say certain cities and sites aren't lit at night by continual flame/faerie fire and the like. It's just less common.
Eberron happens to tout it's Renaissance level technology (enhanced with widespread magic to appear like pre-industrial/mage-punk). I feel the majority of the Realms has Renaissance level technology as well, the books just don't scream it every chance they have. Just like the Realms doesn't emphasize the more mundane use of magic. |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2006 : 22:15:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Archwizard
quote:
Originally posted by Njord
The reason I originally posted this was because I have been reading alot on Eberron lately and was wondering what good reasons in the lore FR had for less widespead magic and how DM's answer the question when players ask.
Places like Thay and Haluura aside most people in the realms avoid magic users like a soccer mom avoids the goth kids in the mall. They make her uncomfortable, "They might be evil but I am not going to kill them." That suspicion directs people away from seekign their help when crops are failing or they need to commuicate with someone far away. I think I am begining to get it.
In FR magic is alot more mystical (ala LOTR) and less technological (Eberron)
I think one of the reasons is that Eberron has the Artificer and Magewright classes, which are based almost solely around magical item creation. They flood the Eberron markets with cheap low level magical items, giving the setting the appearance of a technologically/magically advanced setting.
That is not to say certain cities and sites aren't lit at night by continual flame/faerie fire and the like. It's just less common.
Eberron happens to tout it's Renaissance level technology (enhanced with widespread magic to appear like pre-industrial/mage-punk). I feel the majority of the Realms has Renaissance level technology as well, the books just don't scream it every chance they have. Just like the Realms doesn't emphasize the more mundane use of magic.
In all the Volo's guides written by Ed himself there are several mundane use of magic. That support what Faraer said previously. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 08 Nov 2006 22:32:31 |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2006 : 22:26:33
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| I play it in a way pretty similar to what Faerar has mentioned in his various posts. |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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Varl
Learned Scribe
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2006 : 03:06:30
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quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
All that being said, I feel I must now offer an apology (a defense). I am not homophobic, nor do I think that all of those folks are bound for hell. As I said, this illustration is honestly intended. I hope that it is read as I have intended.
I think your analogy is apt for that style of game. I also think the amount of magic exposure in the Realms is not and should not be an absolute. Whether you run a high, middling, or low magic game, that's what should be what dictates how much magic exposure the public experiences. |
I'm on a permanent vacation to the soul. -Tash Sultana |
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Archwizard
Learned Scribe
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2006 : 03:45:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
In all the Volo's guides written by Ed himself there are several mundane use of magic. That support what Faraer said previously.
Exactly, which is why I'm a little annoyed when people on forums claim FR doesn't use magic for non-combat everyday use. |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2006 : 04:24:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Archwizard
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
In all the Volo's guides written by Ed himself there are several mundane use of magic. That support what Faraer said previously.
Exactly, which is why I'm a little annoyed when people on forums claim FR doesn't use magic for non-combat everyday use.
It depends what you mean by "people", the vast majority (i.e. Commoner 1-5th) of the population don't have an everyday use of magic for mundane tasks.
Adventurers, including retired one that have become innkeepers/counselors/merchants/etc. are the main user of magic, both for mundane and extraordinary tasks.
There are of couse some permanent effects in many cities (and small hamlets) that are used daily by commoners like the Waymoot in Waterdeep.
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Edited by - Skeptic on 09 Nov 2006 04:35:18 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2006 : 04:34:59
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| But also rich people, whether it's noble or mercantile wealth. |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2006 : 04:38:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
But also rich people, whether it's noble or mercantile wealth.
Indeed ! |
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Archwizard
Learned Scribe
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2006 : 05:44:55
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| People as in real life people who hold the view that the Realms does not mention mundane magic use. Of course commoners would have difficulty getting their hands on magic. I don't recall magic use being abundant even amongst Eberron's farmers. |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2006 : 05:58:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Archwizard
People as in real life people who hold the view that the Realms does not mention mundane magic use. Of course commoners would have difficulty getting their hands on magic. I don't recall magic use being abundant even amongst Eberron's farmers.
Doh I misread your post, anyway the details I gave were relevant to the OP. |
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Archwizard
Learned Scribe
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2006 : 07:07:32
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No worries.
Everyone was on topic anyway. |
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Njord
Acolyte
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2006 : 16:24:25
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| Thanks for the help. I liek the "magic is like the sunset" ideas. It may happen everyday in some places but it is no less spectacular. On another note, do you think the D&D magic system aids or hinders the Magic of the Realms. They kinda go hand in hand considering it is a D&D setting but sometimes I feel like the Realms does not fit the Vancian (sp?) system so well. Maybe it is just my odd interpretation. |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2006 : 16:32:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Njord
I feel like the Realms does not fit the Vancian (sp?) system so well. Maybe it is just my odd interpretation.
Hmmm.. that would be a good question for Ed, but IIRC he said something positive about it. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2006 : 16:54:25
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Yes, the Realms used Vanceian magic before it was adapted to D&D. But there are subtleties of Realms magic that D&D doesn't represent.
Also bear in mind that people may feel the effects of magic even when they don't see the magic directly. The town is safer from monster raids because a mage scries for them; wards guard your village from undead or the inn you're staying in from fire; you don't starve in the winter because of Chauntea-blessed crop yields. |
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Practical Magic
