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mastermustard
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Sep 2017 : 05:35:03
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The orginal Baldur's Gate series is hailed as a gaming icon for being the first major step in the evolution of RPG gaming, and NWN2 conintued that tradition to great financial success. The Eberron D&D Online game and the Neverwinter RPG met decent profits as well due to their online focus which appealed to gamers of their day as well. From Baldur's Gate 1 to Neverwinter MMO I can't recall a game that didn't sell well or wasn't important in some way.
So why are D&D games thrown by the wayside even though they're demonstrably a cash cow?
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4427 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2017 : 06:43:40
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| Daggerdale was a MAJOR flop and Sword Coast Legends, from all accounts, did pretty poor as well. WotC NEEDS to team up with Bio-Ware and EA again to make a more evolved 3rd person Realms game similar to Mass Effect/Dragon Age. That would sell like hot cakes. |
Edited by - Diffan on 14 Sep 2017 06:44:18 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
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ZeshinX
Learned Scribe
Canada
210 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2017 : 00:39:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Daggerdale was a MAJOR flop and Sword Coast Legends, from all accounts, did pretty poor as well. WotC NEEDS to team up with Bio-Ware and EA again to make a more evolved 3rd person Realms game similar to Mass Effect/Dragon Age. That would sell like hot cakes.
Sword Coast Legends killed its development studio (nSpace), was picked up by their publisher, Digital Extremes (DE), ported to console and pretty much immediately abandoned. I'd qualify that as not only a flop, but a disaster.
The game was barely D&D. It was, funnily enough, far more like Dragon Age: Origins in terms of mechanics with a D&D skin on it.
Frankly, if they put the D&D label on it, I expect D&D rules. Not a 1:1 translation, but an adaptation of the rules that more closely resembles its source (i.e. the Baldur's Gates, Icewind Dales, Neverwinter Nights, etc). SCL was, at best, a mediocre role-playing game, a pathetic toolset, and an absolutely terrible D&D game.
I do agree with you though that a D&D game developed and published by Bioware/EA would likely sell like mad. I'd rather not see either company touch the D&D brand, since they have ruined everything they touch since Dragon Age 2 (in my eyes at least), but it would undoubtedly make a ton of money. |
"...because despite the best advice of those who know what they are talking about, other people insist on doing the most massively stupid things."
-Galen, technomage |
Edited by - ZeshinX on 15 Sep 2017 00:42:19 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2017 : 01:51:09
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i'd like to take the time to point out that some of the brains that put out Baldur's gate 1&2 and Icewind Dale 1&2 as well as Neverwinter Nights 1 &2 no longer work at bioware, or obsidian.
some of them work at Beamdog studios and chris avalone works at owlcat |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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mastermustard
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2017 : 02:55:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Daggerdale was a MAJOR flop and Sword Coast Legends, from all accounts, did pretty poor as well. WotC NEEDS to team up with Bio-Ware and EA again to make a more evolved 3rd person Realms game similar to Mass Effect/Dragon Age. That would sell like hot cakes.
The latest installments of both series' have been ridiculed for various reasons. I don't want to get into politics but I'd wait a few years before I let Bioware make a game for any IP I owned.
To be candid, I'd be concerned that Bioware's dev team might add their own politically correct spin to the Realms.
It would definitely get D&D out in the public eye in a way that D&D hasn't been since 2007, though. |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2017 : 06:50:35
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The problem with D&D FR games, is imho, they need to be fun. That's it...
Not about rules, if it "fits, etc. Bioware seems to hit some magical middle ground, making sure it's fun enough, and are politically correct to avoid issues. Bethesda's Fallout series is way too politically correct, and a bit "watered down" compared to the old IP of Interplay, but "fun" is where a PC game needs to go. Same as for D&D a Friday night  |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2017 : 23:23:28
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| I do wonder if anyone clicked those links... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2017 : 02:45:16
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No AAA company wants to bother. They can make their own property, keep all the intellectual property, and funnel all the money to themselves. Moreover, it doesn't look like WoTC has the bargaining power for anything more than small publishers. The Infinity Engine games came out at a time before Morrowind, and now the demand is high for quality that a studio WoTC can contract with will not be able to pull off.
If anything, the Dungeons & Dragons brand may even be a detriment, because while D&D does have its followers, as we saw with SCL, a less than faithful adaptation of the rules of the game brings widespread condemnation.
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Edited by - Veritas on 16 Sep 2017 02:46:29 |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2017 : 03:34:58
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| No AAA studio or development company would want to deal with WoTC. It's an absolute legal nightmare. Bethesda, Obsidian and all the others already have or can create their own IPs to keep riffing games off for years... |
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mastermustard
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2017 : 04:10:47
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
i'd like to take the time to point out that some of the brains that put out Baldur's gate 1&2 and Icewind Dale 1&2 as well as Neverwinter Nights 1 &2 no longer work at bioware, or obsidian.
some of them work at Beamdog studios and chris avalone works at owlcat
I did, I'll be giving them a try soon. Very much appreciated. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2017 : 04:15:27
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oh and b4 anyone looks at idle champions.
it IS a time waster just saying... but it is free though |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2017 : 06:32:10
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The CRPG genre has simply fallen out of its prime. Just like the ARPG genre. New games of this sort keep on being released but they're very niche compared to ever-evolving mainstream MMORPGs.
And there are also licensing issues, of course. WotC and Hasbro are both very territorial over their IPs and both lacking much savvy in digital/software media. I'm sure that they'd stubbornly obstruct efforts to produce a new Bioware-type CRPG (through an outsourced/partnered game dev) or to distribute it through channels (like the Steam platform) which are outside their control.
It would be more realistic - I think - to inquire whether Paizo will ever release such a game (or series of games). |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 16 Sep 2017 06:35:57 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2017 : 10:27:42
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Kingmaker CRPG! Chris Avellone was involved with Planescape: Torment and Fallout 2, which impressed me greatly. Added to my list of (old and new) CRPGs/ARPGs I never played through (Torchlight 2, Victor Vran, Grim Dawn, NOX, Darkstone).
Goblinworks looks like a bit of a flop to me, though, sandbox MMO for a tabletop RPG doesn't seem compelling (or profitable) ... though I might be wrong.
Paizo produces more computer games than Wizbro these days? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2017 : 13:39:40
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Sfdragon: I click links. I just like play AAA Xbox One, PS3/PS4 games like Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Horizon Zero Dawn, Halo or Final Fantasy. I have been playing a mmo or two, but don't want to play D&D in a mmo; I'd rather play real D&D than that.
Pathfinder online could be interesting, Pathfinder: Kingmaker seems like a good game, too. No idea if I will try them, but the name Chris Avellone among the devs seems promising |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2017 : 15:22:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The CRPG genre has simply fallen out of its prime. Just like the ARPG genre. New games of this sort keep on being released but they're very niche compared to ever-evolving mainstream MMORPGs.
I'll respectfully disagree. While MMOs have become more prominent in the last two decades, CRPGs can be very popular and succesful. Skyrim continues to have a strong base even 5 years later. Witcher 3 was massively successful. Fallout 4. The Dragon Age games (although I wub Origins best). Mass Effect.
I'd say they're easily still going strong. |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2017 : 15:47:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The CRPG genre has simply fallen out of its prime. Just like the ARPG genre. New games of this sort keep on being released but they're very niche compared to ever-evolving mainstream MMORPGs.
And there are also licensing issues, of course. WotC and Hasbro are both very territorial over their IPs and both lacking much savvy in digital/software media. I'm sure that they'd stubbornly obstruct efforts to produce a new Bioware-type CRPG (through an outsourced/partnered game dev) or to distribute it through channels (like the Steam platform) which are outside their control.
It would be more realistic - I think - to inquire whether Paizo will ever release such a game (or series of games).
I think the release of Divinity 2, the highly successful kickstarters for Pillars of Eternity and Torment: Tides of Numenera, and the re-release of the infinity engine games as enhanced editions (including the most recent one, Planescape Torment EE) shows there is still a large market for these sorts of games.
Paizo also has a game coming out, Kingmaker, which had a massive kickstarter campaign too. And those are just the games in one variety of CRPG, not counting the Fallout, Dragon Age, or Mass Effect series, Skyrim, etc. I think it's safe to say that in the last 5-10 years the CRPG genre is doing as well as it's ever done, maybe the best it's ever done. |
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ZeshinX
Learned Scribe
Canada
210 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2017 : 16:13:20
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
paizo release a game??
https://owlcatgames.com/
paizo's kingmaker
https://goblinworks.com/pathfinder-online/
their online mmo
again I wonder if anyone ever clicks links
Had no need. I had already backed Kingmaker and have no interest in MMOs. |
"...because despite the best advice of those who know what they are talking about, other people insist on doing the most massively stupid things."
-Galen, technomage |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2017 : 16:34:33
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| Pathfinder Online by all accounts was pretty bad anyways, Kingmaker looks like it's going well though until the finished release there's no way to be certain. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2017 : 17:07:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Kingmaker CRPG! Chris Avellone was involved with Planescape: Torment and Fallout 2, which impressed me greatly. Added to my list of (old and new) CRPGs/ARPGs I never played through (Torchlight 2, Victor Vran, Grim Dawn, NOX, Darkstone).
Goblinworks looks like a bit of a flop to me, though, sandbox MMO for a tabletop RPG doesn't seem compelling (or profitable) ... though I might be wrong.
Paizo produces more computer games than Wizbro these days?
I invested heavily in the pathfinder online kickstarter. It resembled the game in my book not one bit.... though admittedly I tried it for all of two days and got tired of the constant need to forage just to make moderately ok starter equipment. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2017 : 21:37:00
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| bards tale 4 gets released next year too, but that is not dnd.. so.... but it is a rpg..... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2017 : 07:25:58
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quote:
The CRPG genre has simply fallen out of its prime. Just like the ARPG genre. New games of this sort keep on being released but they're very niche compared to ever-evolving mainstream MMORPGs.
lol, it seems like people don't agree with this statement. And so many new CRPG/ARPG titles being released (and re-released) and developed and kickstarted and suggested.
It looks very promising, I love CRPGs and ARPGs - and I loathe MMORPGs. So I really do hope I was wrong. But I still fear that I (and those who've spoken here, lol) are in the minority. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2017 : 13:44:58
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Umm, the CRPG genre and ARPG's exists, the pen and paper adaptions seems to be standing in the shadows, though. I did not know Chris Avellone was active until I read here, and never knew of any adaption of the crazy Monte Cook world of Numenera!
Whats happening, is perhaps what always happens; 1% of the games made gets lots of attention, and the 9% of the rest, who might just have less budget, stands in the shadows of the big 3D engines. D&D still have waaayy to few games made, Wotc simply burns money by not getting any major titles made by 3. party devlopers. |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2017 : 18:50:28
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Someone needs to work on an Everquest 3. EQ was the original computer game that was "DnD-but-not-DnD". It stole every idea from AD&D, but it was never AD&D. It just renamed some things differently. Instead of "Drow" you simply had Dark Elves (Tier'Dal). Instead of Wood Elves, you had Feir'Dal. And then you had killable deities/avatars too. If you were high enough level, you and your guildmates entered the deity's home plane, and you slew them there. Fun times, fun times.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2017 : 06:37:50
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quote:
Someone needs to work on an Everquest 3. EQ was the original computer game that was "DnD-but-not-DnD". It stole every idea from AD&D, but it was never AD&D. It just renamed some things differently. Instead of "Drow" you simply had Dark Elves (Tier'Dal). Instead of Wood Elves, you had Feir'Dal. And then you had killable deities/avatars too. If you were high enough level, you and your guildmates entered the deity's home plane, and you slew them there. Fun times, fun times.
EverQuest was not original at anything. It was not even original at being unoriginal.
Numerous ancient CRPGs - most notably the popular Ultima, Wizardry, Might & Magic, and Bard's Tale series - had already "stolen" and "renamed" countless things and ideas from AD&D. Indeed, Ultima Online was arguably the first popular MMORPG, many players of the first EQ game were refugees from UO. (EQ was more technologically advanced and refined than UO, it was the better game in its time, until it was usurped by even more advanced and refined games.)
And (A)D&D itself "stole" or "renamed" countless things and ideas from other inspirations. Dark elves and wood elves (along with non-folklore notions of elves and dwarves and orcs and dragons and giants in general) were largely imported from Tolkien's "Middle Earth" novels, (killable) immortals/avatars were imported from Moorcock's "Eternal Champion" novels, etc. AD&D 1E even removed things like the Cthulhu mythos, Elric mythos, and Nehwon mythos because they were blatant copyright infringements of works owned by other authors (in some cases, also owned by other game makers).
I've commented before about how impressed I am that D&D inspired an entire "RPG genre" - a vast collection/pastiche of adapted "traditions" and "lore" - which in turn inspired other "RPG" forms and adaptations, which themselves, many times removed, ended up inspiring later editions of D&D. It's a synergistic and evolving thing.
Even today most "RPG" tabletop or computer games remain based on Vancian-based magic (which Gygax "stole" from Vance's Dying Earth novels), and rigorously codified combat/battle simulations (which Gygax "stole" from Chainmail and other tabletop war games), and ideas about "adventures" and dungeon crawls (which Gygax "stole" from Tolkien, Moorcock, Vance, Leiber, and many others). Gygax also "stole" hulking mighty barbarians from Ahnold's Conan the Barbarian movie and "invented" bard and druid counterparts for his ("stolen" from Arthurian legends, Merlin-emulating) magic-user class - and these are all now firmly-entrenched archetypes which still remain popular character/class choices in almost every RPG encountered today.
I think EverQuest 3 won't ever happen simply because World of Warcraft overwhelmingly dominates the genre (while other games like League of Legends tightly crowd all the adjacent niches). The people who "need" to work on EQ3 are already working (for Blizzard) on WoW ... it's where the players are, it's where the money is. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 18 Sep 2017 07:18:02 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2017 : 07:15:42
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the only thing everquest ever had was the elf chick.
that is it.....
hahahahha okay eye candy, but it is more than likely what drew players to look at it |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2017 : 07:22:58
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Sex sells, true.
Chainmail bikinis, scantily-clad sorceresses or elves (or elviras) are also firmly-entrenched parts of the RPG genre, lol, also pioneered by D&D and also "stolen" from other inspirations. |
[/Ayrik] |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2017 : 10:35:57
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| I "steal" all your hot Drow females, and I "give" you a cross-eyed Medusa in return. Sounds fair. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2017 : 13:37:59
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Never had a thing for drow females. Nor for drow anything. Yucky, pale, sickly grey thin and flimsy pointy-eared emotionally disfunctional parodies of real people.
Though, being male, I have been unable to not notice the sexy medusa trope. Some medusae are reptilian and nasty and downright petrifying to behold - as they should be! But others are quite decidedly exotic and feminine and attractive (once you get past the playfully nippy snake hair). Blame Greek mythology for all those bare-breasted medusa depictions of antiquity. Blame Hollywood and mass media for emphasizing and exaggerating (and unashamedly sexifying) monstrous seduction.
All that being said ... you take my drow, I'll take your sinuously curvy snakewomen, it's a deal! |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 18 Sep 2017 14:00:49 |
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Topic |
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Why aren't there any new D&D games in the works?
