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farinal
Learned Scribe
Turkey
270 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Dec 2012 : 14:06:17
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I want to know if the Good Drows or Evil Elves are more rare? Anyone got an idea on this?
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2012 : 14:38:47
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Good elves are the rarest.
You know, the ones that won't kill you if you give a tree dirty looks.
Drow are the most honest of Elves - they want to kill you, but unlike the others, they pretty-much let you know that right up front. No tidal waves killing human cities filled with children, no mass holocausts on entire nations (of their own species)... just a sword to the gut. The Drow themselves are the victims of one such extinction-event, simply because they disagreed with the policies of an aggressive, tyrannical elven state. For that crime they were imprisoned beneath the earth (away from the nurturing sun), and were forced to eat each other, driving most of them insane (YES, that IS canon).
Its only a matter of time before they return to the surface and destroy the true evil. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2012 : 14:52:41
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| At best only 25 percent of Drow even said a pray to Eilistraee and likely not all of them would be considered good, just not Evil enough to have Lolth as patron deity. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2012 : 14:55:52
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| Depends of how you define Evil when talking about surface Elves, some believe there are more Drow that Surface Elves, if this is correct Good Drow indeed might be a larger number. Also as in all things it also depends of what period of time you are talking about. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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farinal
Learned Scribe
Turkey
270 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2012 : 15:08:46
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| What I mean is the percentages of good aligned drows (D&D terms, not philospohicial defining) among total drow population vs the percentage of evil aligned surface elves among total surface elven population |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2012 : 15:42:40
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| Since we don't even remotely have a total population of either, I'll speak in percentages of population (my personal view is that population wise the two are similar... with the surface elves in smaller populations but more wide-spread). I'm going to say that surface elves are more inclined to evil percentage wise than drow are inclined to good. I state this because hate is a powerful thing, much easier to succumb to than to stick to the ideals of good (or put in another way, the dark side is easy to follow young Jedi). Given that drow come from a society where evil and hate are actually appreciated and life is harder and more dangerous than the surface, very few would have the luxury of considering other options and still survive. Meanwhile, the surface elves have an easier life, but they face constant encroachment by "lesser" races (with logging, raids by other races seeking magic, raids by slavers who want to fill their pockets by providing an elf female on the auction block, etc...), and this kind of thing will easily bring about racist sentiments even amongst well intentioned elves... over time these sentiments may turn darker. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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farinal
Learned Scribe
Turkey
270 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2012 : 15:54:21
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| Can you guys give me some examples of evil elf FR characters in FR novels? I want to read on this issue. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2012 : 16:00:03
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Elaith Craulnober, Shevarash, and there's been multiple personages from the Eldreth Veluuthra. I recommend reading the Eldreth Veluuthra wiki entry for some site information.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Eldreth_Veluuthra |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2012 : 16:08:41
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quote:
Originally posted by farinal
Can you guys give me some examples of evil elf FR characters in FR novels? I want to read on this issue.
Kymil Nimesin was one. Members of the Eldreth Veluuthra are evil, as well.
I quite agree with the sentiments expressed by sleyvas.
On top of that, from a story-telling standpoint, good drow should remain exceedingly rare. It makes for good story when someone rebels against racial ideals and embraces a wholly opposite way of life. The impact of this is greatly diminished when every other drow is doing the same thing. If the trend towards rebellious good-aligned drow continues, the evil ones will become the minority! 
I quite understand the appeal of drow, and I myself have succumbed to the desire to create a drow NPC. But my guy is evil. If I was to play a drow, it would be an evil drow in a campaign of evil drow -- I prefer original ideas, and the good drow concept is too overdone for my liking.
In my Realms, there are three good drow -- the ones already mentioned in canon Realmslore, prior to 3E's drow novels. I don't need or want any more than that. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2012 : 17:19:52
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| Drow are the better elves *nod nod* |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2012 : 17:22:30
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jaamdath was a war machine and needed to be stopped and you know it markustay.....
as to the answer of the op's question
if by alignment, both would be rare, you'd come along finding an evil elf more than a good drow |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2012 : 17:52:32
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While evil elves are rare , there are considerably more of them than goodly drow especially following the demise of the Masked Lady.
Though of course many of them , such as the Staryms of Myth Drannor do not consider themselves evil but rather a Superior race, which apparently gives them the right to do whatever they want. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2012 : 19:00:06
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By their nature, good drow should be VERY rare. As for elves, I don't know. I couldn't care less. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Entromancer
Senior Scribe
USA
388 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2012 : 19:06:30
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| Based on Elminster in Myth Drannor, I felt the Staryms would fit right in Menzoberranzan or any other given drow city. |
"...the will is everything. The will to act."--Ra's Al Ghul
"Suffering builds character."--Talia Al Ghul |
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Lunarbeams
Acolyte
43 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2012 : 19:23:57
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| The best way putting The Drow are more honest being who they are than the elves are. As for being nihilistic and sociopaths Drow will admit to it gladly. Elves done evil yeah if they didn't we wouldn't have the Fey'ri running around. So it really depends on the individual more than societal one of the Drow. |
"Software are easy to solve because they do not have egos. " |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2012 : 21:27:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Lunarbeams
The best way putting The Drow are more honest being who they are than the elves are. As for being nihilistic and sociopaths Drow will admit to it gladly. Elves done evil yeah if they didn't we wouldn't have the Fey'ri running around. So it really depends on the individual more than societal one of the Drow.
I don't think you'd need an elf parent to be evil to produce a fey'ri offspring. Elves of either gender could be tricked, seduced, or violated by a demon regardless of their alignment. I agree that some would go along with the idea willingly (for whatever reason), but in my opinion, not as many as through the above examples.
That said, it would seem to me that there are more evil elves than good drow, reasons which having already been discussed in this scroll. Good drow are Drizzt, Liriel, and Qilue as 'named' souls, plus undefined NPC worshipers of Eilistraee. I would not disallow a drow as a player character, but they could not be 'good'. At best, an evil-leaning neutral alignment, and they would still be saddled with the load of racial prejudices that typify drow.
- OMH |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2012 : 22:25:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
quote:
Originally posted by Lunarbeams
The best way putting The Drow are more honest being who they are than the elves are. As for being nihilistic and sociopaths Drow will admit to it gladly. Elves done evil yeah if they didn't we wouldn't have the Fey'ri running around. So it really depends on the individual more than societal one of the Drow.
I don't think you'd need an elf parent to be evil to produce a fey'ri offspring. Elves of either gender could be tricked, seduced, or violated by a demon regardless of their alignment. I agree that some would go along with the idea willingly (for whatever reason), but in my opinion, not as many as through the above examples.
While you are correct, most of the fey'ri in the Realms were created deliberately -- those elven parents knew exactly what they were doing, and willingly made the choice. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2012 : 23:26:04
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| I don't think this can really be quantified... although Ed Greenwood stated how many non-evil drow there were in "Drow of the Underdark" the same can't be said of surface elves. I assume there are as many evil elves as dwarves, halflings, gnomes and humans... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2012 : 00:40:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
quote:
Originally posted by Lunarbeams
The best way putting The Drow are more honest being who they are than the elves are. As for being nihilistic and sociopaths Drow will admit to it gladly. Elves done evil yeah if they didn't we wouldn't have the Fey'ri running around. So it really depends on the individual more than societal one of the Drow.
I don't think you'd need an elf parent to be evil to produce a fey'ri offspring. Elves of either gender could be tricked, seduced, or violated by a demon regardless of their alignment. I agree that some would go along with the idea willingly (for whatever reason), but in my opinion, not as many as through the above examples.
While you are correct, most of the fey'ri in the Realms were created deliberately -- those elven parents knew exactly what they were doing, and willingly made the choice.
Aye. And Eric [the designer/creator of the fey'ri] has confirmed this in the past. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Rofocale
Acolyte
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2012 : 02:40:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
quote:
Originally posted by Lunarbeams
The best way putting The Drow are more honest being who they are than the elves are. As for being nihilistic and sociopaths Drow will admit to it gladly. Elves done evil yeah if they didn't we wouldn't have the Fey'ri running around. So it really depends on the individual more than societal one of the Drow.
I don't think you'd need an elf parent to be evil to produce a fey'ri offspring. Elves of either gender could be tricked, seduced, or violated by a demon regardless of their alignment. I agree that some would go along with the idea willingly (for whatever reason), but in my opinion, not as many as through the above examples.
That said, it would seem to me that there are more evil elves than good drow, reasons which having already been discussed in this scroll. Good drow are Drizzt, Liriel, and Qilue as 'named' souls, plus undefined NPC worshipers of Eilistraee. I would not disallow a drow as a player character, but they could not be 'good'. At best, an evil-leaning neutral alignment, and they would still be saddled with the load of racial prejudices that typify drow.
- OMH
What about Zak? |
Edited by - Rofocale on 21 Dec 2012 02:41:11 |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2012 : 05:02:53
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| Actually the so called goodly elves are not all that good. With human expansion and the need to clear space for more residences, who can rightly say who is good or bad? A Sembian contractor needs to clear forests to have a place for families to live but elves dont like their trees being taken so they start all kinds of trouble...or maybe its just cause i dont like elves... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2012 : 05:43:47
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| Well you should remember invading humans are not exactly good either. Often Evil acts causes those attack to use Evil as the quickest way to fight back. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2012 : 05:57:02
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quote:
Originally posted by farinal
Can you guys give me some examples of evil elf FR characters in FR novels? I want to read on this issue.
One of the main antagonists from the Blades of the Moonsea trilogy is Rhovann Disarnnyl. Evil-bad Moon elf. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2012 : 06:22:10
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One of the antagonists from the Counselors and Kings Trilogy by Elaine Cunningham is an evil elven wizard (and magehound) named Kiva. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2012 : 06:48:01
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On drow: A good drow is one in a million. Extremely, extremely rare. Every drow I have ever played (as a PC or NPC) is either evil or neutral *at best.*
On elves: An evil surface elf is uncommon, maybe one in ten or one in twenty at the least. Elves fall prey to arrogance, racism, and intolerance all the time, and it leads them down an evil path.
So evil elves are substantially more common than good drow.
On fey'ri: the initial daemonfey (the Dlardrageths) born into the Realms were indeed the product of knowing interbreeding with demons. The involved houses didn't think what they were doing was "evil" (or perhaps more accurately, they didn't care)--their priority was strengthening the bloodline. From that point, half-demons bred with elves to create fey'ri, who bred with other fey'ri or untainted but willing elf allies.
After the fey'ri re-emerged under Sarya Dlardrageth in the 14th century, according to Cloak and Dagger and Races of Faerun, they expanded their breeding program among mostly sun elves who were "recruited" (willingly or forcefully) to the cause. After the main host of the fey'ri was destroyed in the Great Return to Cormanthor, the last survivors of the race scattered to the winds and bred however and whenever they chose--the fey'ri still alive in the late 15th century were not united in a common breeding plan. (See my recent Fey'ri article for more details.)
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2012 : 13:00:08
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| When it comes to any race, excluding outsiders, I like to think that truly good and truly evil members of said race are a minority and that the bulk of every population is neutral/unaligned. Even among races such as drow, orcs, duergar, and goblinoids- I think true evil requires a level of effort in maliciousness, and that most members of a given race simply don't care enough to go that extra mile. Likewise, true good requires an effort in altruism that even decent people aren't going to go out of their way for. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2012 : 14:05:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
quote:
Originally posted by Lunarbeams
The best way putting The Drow are more honest being who they are than the elves are. As for being nihilistic and sociopaths Drow will admit to it gladly. Elves done evil yeah if they didn't we wouldn't have the Fey'ri running around. So it really depends on the individual more than societal one of the Drow.
I don't think you'd need an elf parent to be evil to produce a fey'ri offspring. Elves of either gender could be tricked, seduced, or violated by a demon regardless of their alignment. I agree that some would go along with the idea willingly (for whatever reason), but in my opinion, not as many as through the above examples.
While you are correct, most of the fey'ri in the Realms were created deliberately -- those elven parents knew exactly what they were doing, and willingly made the choice.
Actually, that's not necessarily true. Weren't there elven families that were kidnapping elf females for forced breeding (it wasn't necessarily the Dlardrageths... but I could have sworn I read it)? If they had such, I don't see them giving such unfortunates a "break" in between breeding cycles unless it were to simply keep enough caretakers available to handle the newborns. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2012 : 14:08:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
On drow: A good drow is one in a million. Extremely, extremely rare. Every drow I have ever played (as a PC or NPC) is either evil or neutral *at best.*
On elves: An evil surface elf is uncommon, maybe one in ten or one in twenty at the least. Elves fall prey to arrogance, racism, and intolerance all the time, and it leads them down an evil path.
So evil elves are substantially more common than good drow.
On fey'ri: the initial daemonfey (the Dlardrageths) born into the Realms were indeed the product of knowing interbreeding with demons. The involved houses didn't think what they were doing was "evil" (or perhaps more accurately, they didn't care)--their priority was strengthening the bloodline. From that point, half-demons bred with elves to create fey'ri, who bred with other fey'ri or untainted but willing elf allies.
After the fey'ri re-emerged under Sarya Dlardrageth in the 14th century, according to Cloak and Dagger and Races of Faerun, they expanded their breeding program among mostly sun elves who were "recruited" (willingly or forcefully) to the cause. After the main host of the fey'ri was destroyed in the Great Return to Cormanthor, the last survivors of the race scattered to the winds and bred however and whenever they chose--the fey'ri still alive in the late 15th century were not united in a common breeding plan. (See my recent Fey'ri article for more details.)
Cheers
ah, kk, I knew I read it somewhere that another group of fey'ri were doing forced breeding. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2012 : 15:45:59
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
While you are correct, most of the fey'ri in the Realms were created deliberately -- those elven parents knew exactly what they were doing, and willingly made the choice.
Actually, that's not necessarily true. Weren't there elven families that were kidnapping elf females for forced breeding (it wasn't necessarily the Dlardrageths... but I could have sworn I read it)? If they had such, I don't see them giving such unfortunates a "break" in between breeding cycles unless it were to simply keep enough caretakers available to handle the newborns.
I do not recall reading anything about it being any kind of involuntary. In fact, we have this information from page 73 of Monsters of Faerūn (bolding mine):
quote:
The fey'ris are descended from three lesser noble houses of the gold elves, part of the High Forest kingdom of Siluvanede. Thousands of years ago, these elves fell under the sway of House Dlardrageth -- a family of half-fiend elves exiled from the eastern elven lands of Arcorar. When Siluvanede was defeated by the moon elves of Sharrven and Eaerlann (their neighbors in the High Forest), members of these houses bred with demons in an attempt to strengthen their bloodlines.
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2012 : 18:53:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
While you are correct, most of the fey'ri in the Realms were created deliberately -- those elven parents knew exactly what they were doing, and willingly made the choice.
Actually, that's not necessarily true. Weren't there elven families that were kidnapping elf females for forced breeding (it wasn't necessarily the Dlardrageths... but I could have sworn I read it)? If they had such, I don't see them giving such unfortunates a "break" in between breeding cycles unless it were to simply keep enough caretakers available to handle the newborns.
I do not recall reading anything about it being any kind of involuntary. In fact, we have this information from page 73 of Monsters of Faerūn (bolding mine):
quote:
The fey'ris are descended from three lesser noble houses of the gold elves, part of the High Forest kingdom of Siluvanede. Thousands of years ago, these elves fell under the sway of House Dlardrageth -- a family of half-fiend elves exiled from the eastern elven lands of Arcorar. When Siluvanede was defeated by the moon elves of Sharrven and Eaerlann (their neighbors in the High Forest), members of these houses bred with demons in an attempt to strengthen their bloodlines.
I do, in the silverymoon sourcebook for 3e, it siad in some place aroun there that elves travelling in that area had an % chance of being kidnapped by the feyri for breeding purposes.
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why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2012 : 19:27:15
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
While you are correct, most of the fey'ri in the Realms were created deliberately -- those elven parents knew exactly what they were doing, and willingly made the choice.
Actually, that's not necessarily true. Weren't there elven families that were kidnapping elf females for forced breeding (it wasn't necessarily the Dlardrageths... but I could have sworn I read it)? If they had such, I don't see them giving such unfortunates a "break" in between breeding cycles unless it were to simply keep enough caretakers available to handle the newborns.
I do not recall reading anything about it being any kind of involuntary. In fact, we have this information from page 73 of Monsters of Faerūn (bolding mine):
quote:
The fey'ris are descended from three lesser noble houses of the gold elves, part of the High Forest kingdom of Siluvanede. Thousands of years ago, these elves fell under the sway of House Dlardrageth -- a family of half-fiend elves exiled from the eastern elven lands of Arcorar. When Siluvanede was defeated by the moon elves of Sharrven and Eaerlann (their neighbors in the High Forest), members of these houses bred with demons in an attempt to strengthen their bloodlines.
I do, in the silverymoon sourcebook for 3e, it siad in some place aroun there that elves travelling in that area had an % chance of being kidnapped by the feyri for breeding purposes.
If that's indeed correct, it still doesn't change the fact that most of the fey'ri in the Realms were created thru voluntary means -- those ancient families chose to interbreed with demons, and they are the the source of most of the fey'ri. Even if the returned fey'ri are kidnapping other elves for breeding purposes, there wouldn't be all that many new fey'ri, compared to the original batch. |
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Topic |
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Evil Elves or Good Drows which one is more rare?
