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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 21:55:28
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I have been thinking about K-T a lot lately, with 5e on the horizon. The last time I had given it this much thought was at the tail-end of 3e, soon after the 4e stuff came out. I had even extended my timeline forward in to the 4e era for the Kara-Tur project over at the WotC forums. Please take the time to read this - I know its a bit long, but I needed to convey several things at once - Thanks.
I know what I did back then, and why, and I still like it, but with 5e coming around, and certain 'problems' (like distance) cropping up all over again, I had suggested Shou-Lung making overtures toward the west, and even taking over Murghôm. Although that makes sense in terms of game-usability, it conflicts with my 4e ideas (some of which I got to share with BRJ at Gencon). There may be a way of blending the two together, but it does loose a bit of its 'kewl' factor (because the 'thing' I envisioned winds up in the middle of the Shou Empire, if the border moves like that).
So here I am, trying to imagine what would have caused all these changes. And of course I have both the Spellplague and the a century as tools, not to mention pretty much every major RSE since late 1e (including the ToT). And now I have The Sundering as well. My toolbox is full - we can really do whatever the hell we want.
My original thoughts surrounding the Spellplague was a massive rift forming where the Dragonwall used to be. The wall is gone (thats canon), but we would still need some sort of nigh-impassable barrier. Then I figured it had a river of lava at the bototm, with all sorts of sulphurous fumes pouring out (also limiting air-travel above it by most flying creatures). Besides, 'lava rivers' are always at least a +1 on the kewl-O-meter. I had other thoughts as well (in the form of a very different sort of 'bridge') - I'll just put that on a back-burner for now.
What if, instead of the crevasse and lava river I had imagined, that the exploding Dragonwall did even more damage? (it was a god that detonated, after all). What if we got a massive tectonic shift (the surrounding region is canonically geothermally unstable, and there's no Underdark in the east), and we now have a new 'landrise' - that everything east of the old dragonwall has now 'sunk' hundreds of feet, given us a daunting cliff-face as our obstacle? A cliff-face riddled with long-forgotten caves, some of which may lead to long-lost subterranean cities (or maybe not so lost...)
3e used the Lot5R setting for Oriental Adventures. I personally took that as a slap in the face to FR (which kara-Tur is part of). However, a lot of folks were not happy with old K-T, because it did have a lot of derivativeness. With what I propose, we could completely re-imagine a 'new Kara-Tur', based on the old, but with whatever sweeping changes we care to make (like making it more original, like Rokugan/Lot5R).
It could become a swampy jungle land in 5e, filled with all sorts of (Lovecratian?) horrors - that vibe works well if you look at the OA-MM's. In fact, it could be lots of things. And we can shrink it up to fit better (its already been shrunk once). This would also gives us a reason for the ex-patriate Shou to have moved a good chunk of their culture west - the 'old lands' are now very different and horror-filled (with a few pockets of 'evil warlords' and 'monster countries').
That means there could be a reason for Semphar and Murghôm falling into Shou hands (they use to be part of Anok-Imaskar, which is considered the "First Shou Empire", so its not something that hasn't happened in the past). The original peoples would still be present - they'd just be considered 'lower class' now (which is a return to the past as well). DMs can decide how much of the Semphari culture remains (Murghôm never had much detail). I love Semphar, but its redundant with several other regions. In fact, this could even be tied to the 4e lore of those lands being ruled by dragons ('Shou-Lung' literally translates to "followers of the dragon"). So maybe the old regimes in those countries were taken-over by dragons (or dragonborn?), and the shou are just a huge group of refugees that have fled from the 'Sunken Lands' to the east. This would also explain their increased presence in Faerûn-proper, and under the 'support for all eras' paradigm, it means we would also receive new (old) lore about Kara-Tur.
Whats everything think about the basic premise? Sink Kara-Tur and change it drastically, and move the shou west (which 4e was doing anyway)?
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 22:20:57
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If the Shou expand west I could maybe see some conflict between them and the Imaskari who could be moving east to spice things up and give people intrigue in this area. Imagine Powerfull mages vs the nation who knows smokepowder (if i remember correctly).
As an alternative i think the animosities between Wa and the other states could spark a war in Kara-Tur and keep them occupied. Didn´t the Shou ruling family had twins as heirs? (I could be confusing them) That would be a perfect stage for a civil war. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 22:26:45
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I like the idea of having Karaturs tectonic plate becoming a trench alot, but the oceans and seas would come rushing into such a newly formed basin if it had dropped hundreds of feet...
An inundated KaraTur with the landmass reduced to its mountain kingdoms could be a way to literally wash the East into a workable oriental setting. Raise the areas that need saving through some (super)natural occurance. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 22:51:17
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There were twins that were the heirs, but that would now be a hundred years in the past. They may have been from Tu-Lung though (my K-T knowledge is rusty - I am pretty sure that they were from Tu-Lung, not Shou-lung, The more I think about it). I wish I still had that 120 year history I wrote (combined with an extended/augmented FR/K-T timeline). All I recall ATM was a 'Three Kingdoms' period existing down in Tu-Lung after the death of the (1e) emperor.
I resurrected Tan Chin (can't keep a good lich down  ) for some of this - he arose as a new 'hero' of the Shou people ("The First Emperor Reborn"). I considered using some of that still, but sticking the remnant of his 'New Shou Empire' down in old Tu-Lung.
Bear in mind most of the central plains of K-T would now be underwater. The Chukei plateau would be sea-level now, and their would be a few new 'island nations' wjhere places like Tabot used to be. The big problem with this is that it moves the japanese-like regions even further away.
Thus, we have to hit them with something (related?) as well. I was thinking just a totalitarian regime - Wu took over their neighbor and Koryo. Also, if the seas poured into the K-T lowlands, then perhaps all of thos islands are one huge island now. however, this still places everything too far to be really useful, and also redundant with some of my other ideas (like Tu-Lung).
What if Tan Chin now rules a new Wu Empire? It would nothing like the old version (as I said, one massive island now). That gives us the whole 'dark lord' vibe way to the east, which could just be ignored if folks don't care for it. We could just turn Tu-Lung into sevral squabbling states now (ostensibly being under the nominal control of the Wu Empire).
Thus, we would not only have the massive exodus of the shou people out of the east (and into Faerûn), but we could also have a large contingent of kozakura (psuedo-Japanese) living in semphar! that will Help different the two major Taan nations further (and they'd be under the control of two dragons... who might hate each other).
Or, conversely, all the 'high points' in the old Shou empire would be lots and lots of islands now, in the 'Shou Sea', and a large group of Kozakurans may be leaving on one (or some) of those.
I may have to do a mock-up so people can picture this better.
EDIT: Kara-Tur mock-up
Picture the area outlined in red being underwater (and dotted with islands). That obliterates almost all of Shou-Lung and most of Tu'Lung as well. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Sep 2012 23:42:00 |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 14:13:17
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I could see the Tu'Lung people go into Laotan and settle in the Petan region and further south in the Jungles due to the flooding of some of their land and with your "new old" Shou moving south i could clearly see a conflict over land.
The Shou People could settle on the Katakoro Plateau and head along the Silk Road into Semphar or further north into the Plain of Horses which would lead to conflict with the Tuigans, even further north into the Ama Basin if it isn´t flooded.
Tabot is reduced in land and huddles in Phutan region fighting off any attempts of Shou settling there
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The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 20:36:20
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Tabot is canonically 'higher' then most of the rest of Kara-Tur (except for maybe Khazari & Ra-Khati). Even the lowlands are on a plateau, compared to Shou-Lung (the only plateau in Shou-Lung is Chukei, which is why the 'Plain of Horse' would survive such a cataclysm). It also should have happened somewhat slowly, otherwise it defeats the purpose - to move the K-T racial groups a bit closer to Faerûn.
I think a very large area should have flooded first (wiping out a few million?), but then other areas (after the land first dropped) would have filled-in more slowly, with rivers widening, and lowlands becoming lakes. This is all something that would have been happening during the Wailing Years, so it should be over in the 4e/5e era. That should have given us plenty of time for thins to settle down, and a major influx of K-T culture into the Taan (Horderlands) region.
Personally, I'd combine the Tuigan (Taangan) remaining with the Nar (and maybe the folk of the Ride) - turn the top part of the UE/ Northern Moonea into the human horse-nomad lands. Then take the Endless Wastes and give them to the Hobgoblins (I'd give them a new name though - they shouldn't call themselves Hobgoblins). Just turn everything east into a massive adventuring locale (a continent-sized dungeon). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Sep 2012 20:36:55 |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 20:44:52
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| Wouldn´t that lead to Rashemen, Vaasa and parts of Damara to fall to the "horsepeople"? Don´t you think that a bit too extreme? I see those nation fight to the last breath than be turned into a horse-nomad land, especially the Rashemi and the Damarrans. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 21:00:44
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Yes and no. We have to remember the ice is still melting. This was canon even before the Shades showed up (Vassa and Damara have only been 'unveiled' from the ice in the past century or so). That means there could be a bunch of new 'tundra' where the Great Glacier used to be.
Before 4e, I would have said we could afford to lose Vassa, but I like the 4e version. maybe moved them down to Damara, and have the Damarans flee (and combine with) Impitur?
Of course, now the sweeping changes I made to the east would effect parts of Faerûn, which was not my intent. It could still be done without all that cultural movement: Have the Tuigan in the Wastes region, and have the Hobgoblins 'take over' on the Plain of Horses (east of the mountains).
Maybe call them Urgoths, or some such, and they should be a playable race. Keep Orcs monsters: I am not happy with that, but I think its a good compromise - it gives us both variants on the Orc theme). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 21:22:11
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Vaasa being turned into a tyranny is reasonable in 4th edition but not with this "Telos" theme. It just feels too "alien" to me. My first pick on it would be to ditch the Telos thing and replace it with Bane since he is the God of Tyranny and he IS the best evil god presented imo.
I´d keep the Tuigans in the Waste region as you said it and have the Shou settle the Plain of Horses. If you want to have Hobgolbins as a playable race you could put them into the Great Wild Wood and the Plain of Heroes to the north of Semphar and have them raid Murghom, Semphar and the Endless Wastes. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 21:51:46
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Well, the whole point of this mental exercise was to move the shou into Murghom, and the Japanese-like peoples (from Wu and Kozakura) into Semphar. Murghom is no great loss, but I really liked Semphar (however, it was redundant, so "asta la vista, baby").
Anything else we accomplish would just be 'gravy'. 
I'm actually picturing a return of the 'ancient hutakaans' - Gnolls - for the Great Wild Wood. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 23:48:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, the whole point of this mental exercise was to move the shou into Murghom, and the Japanese-like peoples (from Wu and Kozakura) into Semphar. Murghom is no great loss, but I really liked Semphar (however, it was redundant, so "asta la vista, baby").
Anything else we accomplish would just be 'gravy'.
I'm actually picturing a return of the 'ancient hutakaans' - Gnolls - for the Great Wild Wood.
By the will of Pflarr, let it be so. |
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 09:39:32
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| I'd like to see more mythological creatures involved in the Eastern Realms, oni, kami, ki-rin, kitsune, kappa, kenku, yuan-ti, linqua, wayang, kuo-toa, naga, garuda, asura, lakshu, vaati, deva, rakshasa, marut, tasloi, nat ... |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 11:26:24
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If large parts of Kara-Tur are flooded i would guess that those creatures unless they are waterbound would move aswell and seek out areas where they could make a living.
As for the Hobos as potential place to be, the Iceroot Wood and the Umberwood in the northern Plain of Horses as their domain and they become the menace of the imigrant Shou? |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 01:14:51
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Not so sure about this idea with the flood and moving eastern elements closer to the west. At its heart, this is all a very 4E-Realms-style concept (and we know how well some of those turned out). It is purely subtractive, removing lands and locales from the setting, squeezing in cultures closer together, some will inevitably "kill someone else and take their stuff."
This is more of the same changes we saw in 4E (Shining South, Vilhon Reach, Old Empires), destroy the periphery areas around Realms to focus on the Core Realms. The setting just got smaller yet again when some people already complained the setting got too small as it was. I feel this change would lose more good features than it would gain. |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 04:32:46
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Kara-Tur simply just needs a rewrite.
Take the best parts, the parts that gave the nations a distinct Asian-feel (one like China, one like Japan, etc.), and the parts that were extremely fantastical and add MORE of that to the regions. Over half the work is already done, but for the other half, just be more unique with the rest.
I agree I did not like the nations being way too close to their RW counterparts, but we do need enough of a distinction so people can say "Ah yes, I want to play a Shaolin monk type, this is where they originate" or "Ah yes, Bushido and ninja are from this land" or "Yes, an ancient India setting works best here". But at the same time, make them blend into each other a bit and give them more unique traits (the original OA barely scratched on this when they took the classes and gave them a different naming scheme depending on what land you were from, but they never really detail what a "samurai in a Chinese-like land" is like compared to one from Kozakura, etc.).
The other parts I didn't like about Kara-Tur was how extremely humanocentric it was. Sure, there were many small tidbits scattered suggesting otherwise, but it felt like the humans of Kara-Tur were giants compared to all the other fantastical elements of the setting that kind of took backstage.
Problem is, no one at WotC wants to take on this task. It is a monumental task, but if Kara-Tur is ever going to "rise again", that's really the only way to get it done.
Which leads me to give a little praise to how the folks at Paizo handled their setting. They're fleshing out their world the way the FR Designers should've been fleshing Toril out. Pathfinder doesn't solely focus on one continent, like FR seems to ooze Faerun in everything, leaving little to no room for anything else. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 08:22:28
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I realize that what I am suggesting is even worse then what 4e did in some respects, but the problem is that we do now have Shou all over the place. They actually become redundant with their own homeland (whats the point of Kara-Tur, if every bit of it is avaialable in Farûn?)
We could just move them closer, into Semphar and/or Murghom, but that would just make them even huger then they already are. The Shou Empire is already monolithic without adding on tons more territory.
i just think if we leave it where it is, and keep it just like it was, it will never get any damn coverage because its just too far away. When asked directly about 'far away places' (other Torillian continents), James Wyatt answered "we want to just concentrate on the Heartlands right now. That doesn't mean it isn't possible at some point in the future".
Which means by the time they grow tired of detailing the Heartlands, 6e rolls around and we rinse & repeat once again, and K-T (and every other 'beyond Faerûn' region) gets ignored for yet another edition. I love Kara-Tur, but I think the only way it will get any love is if we move it right up against Faerûn... otherwise it might as well not even be there.
Same goes for Zakhara and Maztica (if they bring it back).
What if it stays the same shape, but some other major 'badness' happens to it? After all, FR got nuked in 4e, so why not say the same happened to K-T (or worse)? It doesn't have to be a flood - I just thought a new 'landrise' would make a neat replacement for the old Dragonwall. Whatever the reason, we'd still be able to say there are major Shou populations in the Taan region now. Maybe just an inland sea, or something (either connect it to Gbor Nor, or give shou-Lung a port somehow on Brightstar lake.
Hmmmm... that would be interesting... I'll have to tinker with that. What if the crater left by the wall exploding created a new inland sea? A narrow one. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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ZeshinX
Learned Scribe
Canada
210 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 15:37:53
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I'm a huge fan of Kara Tur and would love some more content, but as it is, I'm content to wait and see how they deal with Faerun in 5E. Specifically, how they approach the 'Sundering' event and how the clean up the chaos 4E wrought. If I find I like what the Realms becomes/is becoming, then I'd be massively interested in KT.
Love your ideas though Markustay, though I will agree with some that obliteration is not the way to go. Shifting a bit, sure thing, but more additive, less destructive. |
"...because despite the best advice of those who know what they are talking about, other people insist on doing the most massively stupid things."
-Galen, technomage |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 20:00:41
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See, this is why I'm glad I ask these questions and start these kinds of topics. I realize now that I was looking at this all wrong. I also love Kara-Tur, and I think I put my desire to "move forward in 5e" ahead of my love for the setting, which is just weird (now that I've thought about it more). I was willing to destroy a great swath of it just to hear about it.
I am going to try and cobble together something today - I have become enamored of a direct sea connection. Brightstar Lake/Gbor Nor is connected to the Inner Sea, and the Rauthenflow is indeed nevigable now, or at least it was in 3e (there used to be rapids, which were magically removed). I am now picturing something along the lines of the Vilayet sea from Conan's Hyboria where the wall used to be. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Sep 2012 20:01:35 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 03:39:42
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Perhaps focusing on more mystical elements can prove for an interesting way to change things up. The gods of Kara-Tur and their unique influence on the cultures there could give some guidelines into how they might have weathered the centuries of changes. Also what powerful mythical creatures are candidates for being real 'movers and shakers' of their areas?
Obviously dragons are good and flavourful candidates for having had a hand in the politics, landscape exploitation, wars and disasters in all of Kara-Tur. Perhaps a rise of Oni that claim to power in Wa? A plague spread by Rashasa? Meddling Efreeti? |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 08:51:23
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| We already got the Efreeti part in Calimshan if i am not mistaken and it ruined the region imo. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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ZeshinX
Learned Scribe
Canada
210 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 14:18:03
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The Oni and Kami (spirits) would definitely have a huge amount of influence in that area. The Rakshahsa and Efreeti are more Arabian/Middle Eastern in flavour and have plenty of regions in Faerun and Al-Qadim, so they don't need any significant presence (i.e. coverage) in KT. I wouldn't suggest none at all, but certainly a minimal presence.
Dragons are also a huge part of KT lore, so they'd definitely be involved in some fashion. |
"...because despite the best advice of those who know what they are talking about, other people insist on doing the most massively stupid things."
-Galen, technomage |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 15:43:56
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| Rakshasas actually come from (Eastern) Indian lore. |
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ZeshinX
Learned Scribe
Canada
210 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 16:22:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
Rakshasas actually come from (Eastern) Indian lore.
I sit corrected. Thanks Hawkins. |
"...because despite the best advice of those who know what they are talking about, other people insist on doing the most massively stupid things."
-Galen, technomage |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 21:54:14
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| it could have huge krakentua vs. lung dragon vs. kaiju battles |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 07:39:49
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So I spent the last 3 hours redesigning the east - mostly placing a vast sea where the Quoya desert was, but also adding lots of other 'kewl stuff'. It was coming out pretty damn good, if I do say so myself.
Then GIMP crashed... and I hadn't saved since almost the beginning. I HATE doing maps. 
GIMP = PURE GARBAGE. I think I'll wait until I get another copy of Photoshop before I do any more - its just too frustrating working with this crap program.
Anyhow, the concept worked fine (I even placed islands in the sea wherever my old map showed hills). The only thing that I had to tweak was some of the northern rivers in Semphar, which is okay since it seems the Spellplage changed all of that anyway. I had to create a canal along the old caravan route, which is fine - Shou-Lung is known for building those. I didn't lose any of Kara-Tur, except a where I placed a lake (filled in a loop in the river I was using) - all I really lost was a redundant desert. I managed to connect Shou-Lung directly with the Inner Sea, via 'occupied Semphar', which was the whole point of this exercise (and because of the river that ran to the Celestial Sea, also gave access to Wu & Kozakura shipping).
Maybe I'll give it a go again tomorrow; I need some sleep. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Sep 2012 07:44:35 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 20:53:20
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Re-did it: The New Inland sea
Note that I mostly used existing settlements and worked the lake around them. Originally I had Lo Tu right on the sea, but then I realized that made no sense. In order to do that, I'd have to loose the river connecting it to the Great Ice Sea (Yal Tengri), which is what actually widened to form the new sea (after the Dragonwall exploded and left a big crater). You can't have a lake with two exit-waterways. Thus, Lo Tu has a small canal leading to the Quoya Sea. The river going to Lo Tu is canon, but it used to be fed by the glacier, and that river now runs directly into the new sea. So with some Shou ingenuity, they built the canal which now feeds into the remainder of that river. All of this created two additional inland lakes (which was done on-purpose by the Shou).
The Grand Canal of Shou-Lung (just called the Grand Shou Canal in the west) is about the same size as an existing (canon) Shou canal way to the east, so this is something they are capable of (and had a hundred years to build). Semphar is once-again a vassal-state of Shou-Lung, but the only major Shou presence is in Estanil. Estanil has grown from a small town to a bustling city thanks to the Shou (much of the city is designed in the Shou style), and is the seat of the provincial governor. The administrative capitol is still in Dhaztanar. Aside from Estanil, the Shou remain a minority in Semphar, living in their own neighborhoods within the Semphari towns. The only other large communities of them would be in the port towns for trade reasons (Dhaztanar having the second largest percentage of Shou immigrants in the country).
Murghom is controlled by the Imaskari. I have no idea if they will bring the Mulan back into Mulhorand, but either way, the 'new Imaskari' can still have Murghom. I find it interesting that two 'heirs' to the Imaskar Empire are now both vying for control of the region (which keeps them busy maneuvering against each other, and out of everyone else's hair).
Other Ideas:
I also thought it might be interesting (in 5e) to use some of the 4e lore: The dragon Kings have fallen - The Murghomi one to the Imakaskari, and Gaumahavi (who ruled in Semphar) stepped down. However, they left their dragon disciples behind who now adminster to the two kingdoms under the thumb of the two empires. The Semphari dragonborn are the old (Faerûnian) Dragonborn, who are considered 'divine servants' by the Shou. The Murghomi Dragonborn are the new Abeir variety, and they do not get along with their 'cousins' across the Gbor Nor. Skirmishes have broken out a number of times along the 'neutral zone' (Plain of Heroes), but its only a matter of time berfore open warfare is declared. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Sep 2012 01:11:33 |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 03:28:30
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Markustay, I really like your idea of a lake and a canal in that area as a catalyst for Shou expansion westwards. Taking it further, couple that with a new Faerûnian canal (there's a few possible sites such as between River Chiontar and the Dragonmere, between Lake Esmel and the Deepwash, or through a newly reestablished Nagawater) and one could actually sail across the continent.
But as for your Quoya Lake, I'd make it smaller, covering a strip along the northern Katakoro to the Rendai Hills. Along the rest of the path where the wall stood there could be a dry gorge just above the level of the lake. I'm assuming the big river that runs through the Quoya Desert is fed by underground waterways coming from the glaciers, so if you had a rift in the middle of the way, it would start to fill up - and then you could get an outflow heading north towards the Yal Tengri, but you need not lose the entire Quoya.
Just my two cents... your map is really cool as it is, but I like to make the impact of changes smaller, and in my opinion a desert in the Quoya basin fits really nicely. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 08:48:44
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I thought it was a bit too big as well, but several factors come into play.
The Why:
First, we have the crater/ravine where the Dragonwall used to be. Then we have the Merket Depression (where you see the deep water), and then you have the existing river, which is the western edge of the new sea. The water needed to fill-in where the wall used to be (to create a new obstacle), then that water would have filled in the Merket depression (a large canyon), and all of this would have been facilitated by the river, who's sources are from different points in the old desert but merged together to form that river.
So the water spread from the river east, filling in the canyon and then the ravine (old Dragonall) as it went. All the desert to the west of the river I simply turned into plains (You can compare the two maps by looking at this original). I did extend the sea in a couple of places to make certain towns/cities coastal (and several are beneath the water now). I only added a couple of new settlements down by the Canal, and one fishing village up in the NE corner of the sea.
The only other way I could have done is is to just fill in the ravine and canyon and keep the river separate, but then I would end up with something that looked like the letter 'H'. I made all the hills from my original map into islands, to take from the enormity of the new sea. It is also a very shallow body of water (except where the Merket Depression use to be).
I just wanted to give the Shou a 'closer' presence without taking from anything else. You could even just go with the map and ignore the rest of the stuff I proposed (like that Shou-Lung now controls Semphar - just give them that one city, Estanil). I like the idea of Shou ships plying the waters of the Inner sea without having to blame everything on portals. Also, trade from Durpar can move up through Semphar and out to sea as well; the Durpari have airships, and I can see them having a few regular ships on Brightstar Lake to maintain their own interests (their goods used to move north through Mulhorand, but with the Beastlands there in 4e I doubt that anymore).
Moving Forward:
Looking at the map right now, I think I see what else I might have done - I extended the water much further north then the wall ever went. I wanted it to be a better barrier (against the Tuigan) then the wall ever was. I'm going to be away from home for a few days, so I won't be able to tweak it some more - maybe when I get back.
Beside water and a wall, what else could I use as a barrier to the north there? A ravine won't work, because it would just fill-in with water. Hmmmm... I have to fix all those cliffs (they are all backwards... which is one of the reasons I never released my Kara-Tur map) - I think maybe my original cliff/landrise idea would work in that area. Maybe most of the eastern edge of the sea could be cliffs, which is why no towns have sprung up along that coast. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Sep 2012 08:53:57 |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 20:15:08
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| Has anyone asked Ed what his original intention was for an Oriental fantasy setting in the Realms was? |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 20:20:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
Has anyone asked Ed what his original intention was for an Oriental fantasy setting in the Realms was?
Indeed- or has anyone asked him if he had such an intention at all?
I suspect that he did not.
Thay, the South, and the 'Utter East' are the 'mysterious far away lands.' No need, then, for Kara Tur.
YMMV
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 20:24:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
See, this is why I'm glad I ask these questions and start these kinds of topics. I realize now that I was looking at this all wrong. I also love Kara-Tur, and I think I put my desire to "move forward in 5e" ahead of my love for the setting, which is just weird (now that I've thought about it more). I was willing to destroy a great swath of it just to hear about it.
I am going to try and cobble together something today - I have become enamored of a direct sea connection. Brightstar Lake/Gbor Nor is connected to the Inner Sea, and the Rauthenflow is indeed nevigable now, or at least it was in 3e (there used to be rapids, which were magically removed). I am now picturing something along the lines of the Vilayet sea from Conan's Hyboria where the wall used to be.
Ooooooh, Vilayet!
Will there by Kozaks and lake pirates? |
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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Re-imagining Kara-Tur
