| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Aug 2012 : 05:34:22
|
Hey everyone. Earlier i had started a thread about liches and now i would like to start a thread about fiends.
First off, does anyone know why the succubus can only assume a humanoid shape? I mean, some people are into animals as proven by some people in the RW. Why cant a succubus truly polymorph as per the spell as opposed to only change shape?
And on a side question,why have they been categorised as devils??
Is telepathy and see invisibility/true seeing a staple for every fiend? or is it only on a select few?
Can other fiends be made into familiars besides the quasit and imp?
|
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
|
|
|
Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2012 : 14:57:21
|
Is greater teleport a feature of every fiends?
When a fiend is released from service, some of the spells like planar binding state that the fiend can return to their home plane but if they lack the plane shift spell/ability then how can they do so? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
|
 |
|
|
Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2012 : 17:36:28
|
Answering questions here:
Succubi are creatures of temptation. Those who are into animals are already tempted beyond pleasantries. They will fall on their own, Succubi are there to tempt the mortals who would not otherwise fall, or that have weaker wills.
Telpathy/See Invisibility/True Seeing: It is only a select few fiends. Most lesser fiends do not have the ability, many (but not all) higher fiends (greater and more powerful) have these abilities.
As far as I know in 3.5, Imps and Quasits are the only fiends that openly become familiars. I think you might also be able to get a Lemure or a Dretch with a feat, as well as small elementals and (maybe) a lantern Archon. That's all I can remember at the moment.
Greater Teleport is NOT a feature of every fiend. Again, like the Telepathy & Such, not all fiends have "earned" that ability, dependent on whether it is a Demon, Devil, Daemon, or Demodand.
Any fiend without Plane Shift would have to obtain the service of a mortal capable of casting said spell. This could be threatening their former "master" or obtaining the services via another period of time.
One other houserule effect would be that, at the end of the Planar Binding would banish the outsider back to their home plane. It's all in how you & your GM decide it works.
|
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2012 : 17:50:27
|
A good rule of thumb is that summonings are only temporary. The mage casting the summoning sets the duration (this could be a level-based thing) the fiend is allowed to stay on material plane, unless the summoner wishes to send it back early. Of course, someone else casting a banishment would also send the creature back. I look at it this way - all Outsiders have something similar to how mortals have that 'silver cord' when they travel through the astral - that is a life-line back to their home plane. That tether is like a bungy cord - its snaps back after a time. A creature's stay can be extended via magic, but there is no way to make it permanent.
Most mages would make sure they set a very limited duration on the fiend's 'visit', on the off-chance it manages to get free. The first person a fiend usually goes after is the mage that summoned it. In such a case, its wiser to only have a fiend around for a day or so, rather then 'look over your shoulder' for the rest of your life.
This means only a very stupid mage, an egotistical one, or one who is tricked by the fiend itself would allow for very long 'stays' by the fiend. Other parameters should be able to be 'built in' to the summoning as well - for instance, if the fiend kills the summoner, it is automatically sent back (a fail-safe, for those mages casting such magic in proximity to others).
Fiends being able to wander the Prime Material 'willy-nilly' should be VERY rare. I also don't allow them to gate-in other fiends to the Prime - I've always hated that, and it makes no sense. If that were the case, one loose fiend should have an army capable of taking over the world in just a few days. A fiend should need a foolish mortal to open up a gate and allow others in; thats more logical, fits folklore, and makes for a better gaming hook.
Just my take is all - I've only used fiends sparingly. As for the succubus, I would allow them full polymorh. I figure its just that most folks never see that other side of them.
Rules are just suggestions - you play things the way that feels right for your campaign. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 31 Aug 2012 18:16:55 |
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2012 : 19:34:21
|
I think if a fiend dies on the prime material plane then it reforms back on its home plane so if a fiend were stuck with no way out it could always kill itself (lets face it they're depraved enough).
After reading many source books about the lower planes i think you can explain away why the prime is not full of fiends when one escapes its bonds even though they can gate in others of their kind.
The answer lies in the fact that evil tends not to cooperate. If a fiend were to gate in another it would likely be an ally (of which there would be few) and he would have to promise something the ally want be it power, souls, destruction etc. This would definitely keep down the number of baatezu gating in other baatezu as they are always trying to get one over on each other.
I think even tanar'ri would likely suffer from the same thing even though superficially they only desire to destroy they are still constantly fighting one another so chances are the creature you gate in might try and kill you just for fun.
I think the point about the animal fetish is valid. the fiends are after your soul, in order to do that they have to make you perform acts in tune with their alignment. The bigger the change in your alignment the more they gain from it (so corrupting a paladin brings lots of kudos). If someone is depraved enough to go after animals then that is likely to be against the law of his area and will almost certainly make him evil forcing himself on defenseless creatures. Therefore there would be little point in trying to corrupt him, in FR the best the succubus could do is get the depraved individual to renounce his god then the fiends would have his soul (im sure he wouldnt want to be part of the wall of faithless), but again they wouldnt get much from it.
Im my own house rules i allow all the weaker fiends as familiars but they are nerfed to a level appropriate to the PC (so the creature becomes a 1HD monster if the PC is 1st level and it would have almost none of its abilities). The creature can then gain xp to gain some of its power and abilities. Of course there is nothing to say the fiend wont simply try to devour the mage it has a bond with once it is strong enough, and it will almost certainly whisper dark secrets in the mages ear and constantly try to corrupt him. After all thats what a fiend familiar is for. |
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9
Alternate Realms Site |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2012 : 19:48:13
|
If every demon trusted/made deals with at least one other demon, then the situation would still get out of hand quickly. Also, demons being what they are - they may not have an agenda, other then 'wreak havoc'. Why would they even want to limit their numbers? Worse case scenario, somone kills them and they go home.
As for devils, they cooperate. They would be highly interested in building a power-base on Toril.
I don't use the rules where they can gate in others. I have seen someone put this to the test mathematically. Even the Chosen would be quickly overwhelmed in a matter of days. On the other hand, if a Fiend manages to free itself and take control of a mage, it could force that mage to do its bidding... like gate-in more fiends. Thats an interesting scenario, and has built-in limitations. A fiend just snapping its fingers every turn and filling the world with other fiends is preposterous, IMHO.
The only time you see such 'fiend nests' in the Realms (and elsewhere) is when some archmage(s) builds a permanent gate to the Hells, or Abyss, or whatever. Thats why doing so is so stupid. Even as powerful as that sounds, it still has the built-in limitation of locale. The fiends have a bottle-neck and can't necessarily escape. In an uncontrolled situation, where they can do this anywhere, there is no reason why they wouldn't travel all over Faerun popping other fiends out all over the place.
They are not people - they are living(?) manifestations of evil - they exist merely to spread it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 31 Aug 2012 21:10:08 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2012 : 20:01:36
|
I think there was some bit of errata that limited the summoning.
As a DM, I would limit it, saying that a summoned entity could not summon something else. Something that was hanging around without having been summoned, on the other hand, would be able to use its summoning ability -- though any critters/nastybads that were summoned would not have the same option.
Basically, the summoning magic/ability would interfere with further summoning attempts. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2012 : 21:17:51
|
Thats a pretty good fix as well.
Still, if one got loose, and managed to 'lay low', it wouldn't take long for a massive army to build up.
I like to lean on folklore in these situations - fiends only have power when someone gives it to them. If some idiot starts playing with the FR version of a Ouija board (a scrying crystal, etc), then there should be a chance of them getting through. I just don't like giving fiends the power to bring themselves over. Its too potent, and goes against the folklore - its established that they need mortals for this.
Now suppose one person (non-mage) is limited to bringing over only one fiend in this fashion. Lets say that mortal becomes the demon's 'anchor'. Then the fiend could possibly try to get that mortal to start a cult, so that it could bring other demons over through other mortals. This would only apply to 'normal folk' - Mages would be able to bypass these limitations through magic. To me, that would explain why fiends need mortals, and cults, and why they haven't taken over the world yet (because they can't just cross-over willy-nilly).
Come to think of it, its easy to create a mechanic around this - a person may 'control' up to one fiend in this fashion per magic-casting level. This would explain how witches can have multiple familiars (because in folklore, they could - the familiars were demons in animal guise). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 31 Aug 2012 21:29:04 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2012 : 21:29:05
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Thats a pretty good fix as well.
Still, if one got loose, and managed to 'lay low', it wouldn't take long for a massive army to build up.
Not with my method -- only the one loose one would be able to summon friends. His summoned friends wouldn't be able to summon anything themselves, because they themselves were under the effects of a summoning.
It's basically "summon or be summoned". If you are the latter, you can't do the former. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2012 : 21:43:42
|
Ah, I hadn't considered that - my bad. Still, their should be a limit as to how many the original could summon.
That actually shoe-horns perfectly with my HB stuff above - "only one to a customer". A Fiend-lord would have to enslave humans and force them to perform 'dark rituals' (summonings).
And then there's the Tielfing angle - there could be an 'Innsmouth-like' locale where the fiend is breeding with humans, creating its own army (without resorting to summoning). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2012 : 15:55:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Can other fiends be made into familiars besides the quasit and imp?
there are rakshasa, qlippoth, kyton, oni, div, daemon, asura, and other fiendish familiars in Pathfinder |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2012 : 18:55:34
|
All fiends (in fact, nearly all outsiders) should be able to become familiars, but unfortunately, D&D decided to go a different route with them.
IMG (no matter which world or rules I am running), familiars have always been fiends/outsiders. I never had a set of specific rules for this, but the 2e rules of the Gen (for the Sha'ir class) comes damn close.
'Spirits' fetch spells for Magic users, and take the form of normal animals. As the Magic user gains power (levels), so too does the familiar. This is a great way for low-lev fiends to increase their own power in the fiendish hierarchy (and why so many submit to being familiars - mortals only live so long, and the fiend gets to keep its level).
Thats how I've always handled familiars - YMMV. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 02 Sep 2012 18:56:19 |
|
|
|
Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 10:11:17
|
| Why did they decide to keep the succubi as a devil instead of demon? Couldn't they have made them both? I mean if they did follow Grazz't and all but after a while the Abyss would have sort of absorbed their dna or essence and replicated them. I mean Malchanthet is a demon and a demon lord at that! |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
|
|
|
|
Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 16:08:39
|
| Their reasoning was that they are too manipulative to be chaotic. |
. |
|
|
|
Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 16:14:46
|
| Do we have any information on Malcanthet since 4th Edition? As for the reasoning, i don´t buy that. Chaotic beings can be manipulative aswell. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
|
|
|
Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2012 : 05:58:49
|
| Agreed after all how would the demon lords function without a little manipulation here and there... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
|
|
|
|
Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2012 : 10:34:14
|
| It was a small change compared to what happened to the archons, from lawful good to chaotic evil. The guardinals were erased from existence, never been a big fan of them, they should have remained as primal spirits. |
. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2012 : 17:23:49
|
I think the best way to spin all of these changes is just to blame it on 'limited intel' (for Primes), and various groups "doing their own thing".
Thus, certain major lords declared a truce in the Bloodwar... but it doesn't mean the fiends have stopped fighting on most planes - old grudges die hard. Some Succubi may have returned to their Erynies roots, but not all. Some Angels may have 'fallen' (happens a lot, actually), but certainly not all.
Look at this way - the Planer Structure itself was in complete chaos, and most of the known portals/gates (and associated translocational magics) were no longer functional. Folks in the Prime Material were relying on 2nd (or 3rd, or 4th, etc) hand information. A lot of this info may have come from priests or Celestials (who lie), Fiends (who lie a LOT), or even gods (who lie worst of all). 'The Truth' we got in 4e was the truth as the people of the 4e era assumed it to be. In 5e, we will get 'new truths', and find out what really happened.
Not so much a retcon, but rather, a re-interpretation of the facts (I know, thats a fine line right there, if the line exists at all). The one thing all of us were screaming for in 4e was more information about everything. Now we have a chance to get it (and things will hopefully start making sense). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 14 Sep 2012 17:27:45 |
|
|
|
Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2012 : 05:15:13
|
I like that approach. The facts that we know may not be facts at all but merely heresay and the only ones who do know are not telling or even their knowledge is suspect. I guess thats why there are still succubi in the Abyss and all that, after so long the Abyss would have merely given birth to their particular race.
Has anyone ever used a fiend familiar asides from the imp/quasit? Anyone use a bulezau or chasme or even a canoloth... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
|
|
|
|
TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 01:36:48
|
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
First off, does anyone know why the succubus can only assume a humanoid shape? I mean, some people are into animals as proven by some people in the RW.
Returning to Realmslore, there's even a ballad about this, part-quoted in Elfshadow!  Jokes aside, though, succubi are supposed to do far more than just seduce and life-drain, and this requires communication.
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
And on a side question,why have they been categorised as devils??
Because 4e is such a 4e.
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Is greater teleport a feature of every fiends?
Most. Planescape sourcebooks addressed the effect of this on tactics, etc. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
|
|
|
Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2012 : 07:18:34
|
| Can all fiends see insible/ethereal creatures? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
|
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2012 : 18:39:40
|
I imagine that succubi can polymorph self into any race/form/gender they choose. They might pretend to a be creatures of divine beauty, they might often pass themselves off (to mortals) as various angels or celestial breeds. And yes, they could take on animal forms if desired ... although I would think that most succubi have the relatively simple mission of seducing mortals through physical temptation, while base and primal corruptions (such as lusting bestiality) are probably more "refined" tools of damnation generally employed by more sophisticated fiends.
Understandably, the topic isn't explored in detail within Wizbro publications. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 25 Sep 2012 18:39:54 |
|
|
|
Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2012 : 06:22:03
|
I do think that someone could also homebrew that perhaps certain amounts of incubi/succubi could take only specific types of forms. Maybe there is a succubus who looks like a troll and can only take monstrous forms associated with her true form, while other succubi can only take on forms of different types of abberation.
I mean they will tempt anything that has a soul to bring it to the Abyss right? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
|
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2012 : 10:50:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
I do think that someone could also homebrew that perhaps certain amounts of incubi/succubi could take only specific types of forms. Maybe there is a succubus who looks like a troll and can only take monstrous forms associated with her true form, while other succubi can only take on forms of different types of abberation.
I mean they will tempt anything that has a soul to bring it to the Abyss right?
I would expect that certain souls would be more valuable to them. Why put time and effort into winning an already evil soul, as opposed to corrupting an otherwise good soul?
Also, I see no reason to limit succubus transformations to just one mortal race. It's too limiting, given their goals. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 22:29:19
|
On the issue of Succubi, other than the recent Kobold Quarterly article, does anyone recall an old school 'Ecology of the Succubus' style article or tome that details background, play tips, and what not?
I know Ed did a whiz bang series on the Nine Hells back in the day, but I'm wondering if there is anything similar that details running a Succubus? |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
|
|
|
Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2012 : 07:05:02
|
| Not that I recall or know of, but some of the scribes may well have the info. Mine is limited compared to others here. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
|
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2012 : 13:44:13
|
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Why did they decide to keep the succubi as a devil instead of demon? Couldn't they have made them both? I mean if they did follow Grazz't and all but after a while the Abyss would have sort of absorbed their dna or essence and replicated them. I mean Malchanthet is a demon and a demon lord at that!
One of the major design philosophies was to get rid of what some considered to be unnecessary symmetry and redundancies. They wanted to highlight that demons and devils were different beyond the letters in their alignment box.
Of course, that kind of went out the window when they followed your line of thinking and detailed succubi that *did* follow Graz'zt to the Abyss and became demons there, Malchanthet being one of them, and the rest now being called inccubi. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
|
|
|
Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 10:10:46
|
| According to the dragon magazine, Malchanthet was an "original" succubus, she was spawned from the Abyss itself, she wasnt a servant of Grazz'zt, in fact she spurned/betrayed him then he took her form to seduce Kotschie, the frost giant demon lord... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
|
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
|
|
Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 15:09:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Which issue?
Dragon 353 I believe. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
|
|
|
|
Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 02:54:07
|
This has been rattling around my brain for some time,but how would a DM rule this situation;
A wizard creates the magic circle to summon a elemental/demon/devil etc(whatever you want) and uses the silver powder and stuff. Now the circle is created and the spirit summoned, with planar binding as an example. The wizard however approaches the circle and crosses it. Does the magic of the circle break and therefore the spirit is loose or... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
|
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Need to Know: Fiends
