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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 21:31:06
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I'm looking for any and all canon lore about the means in which the various Goblins came to the Forgotten Realms.
Also, any Canon reference as to why there are three primary races: Goblins, Hobgoblins, Bugbears.
I know there is a goblin lover in these halls! 
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 21:59:51
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@dalor:
U have to introduce me to him ;)
Edit: letme see where I have these files. Can take a bit, since the hard-drive is retired ;) |
Edited by - Jakuta Khan on 19 Mar 2011 22:02:11 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 22:01:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakuta Khan
@dalor:
U have to introduce me to him ;)
You BE him green man! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 22:04:16
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thought so.....
but not only them, i have a knack for most of the humanoids.
Kobolds and draconic races also deeply interest me....
but for them there is much more information, so a bit fewer questions to ask .... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 22:05:48
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Homebrew:
I haven't given Bugbears much thought, but I had assumed that hobgoblins were the result of Orc/Goblin crossbreeding. Like the Liger, the offspring is greater then either of its parents.
Over the many, MANY centuries, Hobgoblins have evolved into their own race. Today's hobgoblins are much more uniform in their appearance (unlike true crossbreeds, which can vary quite a bit) then their early predecessors, and like most creatures with a vary wide gene pool, they are much more clever then either group they derived from.
Just my take, is all. I suppose Bugbears could be a hobgoblin/something else crossbreed, but I'm not sure what. Alaghi? Yeti? maybe regular bears? {yuck}
As for where they came from, I think they have always been around, but just haven't gotten the same kind of 'coverage' orcs have (after all, when's the last time people panicked when hearing about a 'goblin horde'?)
There's a story about Goblins in Realms of Infamy (a decent look at the goblin mindset), and also quite a lot about advanced goblins in Into the Dragon's Lair, which covers the goblin & dragon portions of the devil-dragon wars in Cormyr (Death of the Dragon). Unfortunately, I found the three evil elements disconcerting, in that there didn't seem to be a logical reason for all of them working together (which they really didn't do, at all). Thats the novel; as for the game supplement, it was okay (lots of info on an ancient Romanesque goblin civilization behaviorally, but not much historically).
And then there is the Battle of Bones.
In my homebrew lore, they are an offshoot of the fey, but thats 100% un-canon. They belong to the unseelie duende. Like the orcs, this makes them distantly related to elves.
EDIT: there was also that Drizzt short-story featuring a goblin as 'the victim' (of human cruelty). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Mar 2011 22:08:47 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 22:20:07
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It is already established in (1E?) canon that hobs are descended from orcs and goblins. I can't recall where.
Wikipedia has some interesting information. My (European) parents made sure I grew up with the notion of goblins being warty evil green little bastards, essentially just trolls with a smaller build (allowing them to more conveniently hide under your bed). I never knew about Japanese goblins before. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 22:21:46
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ok, just from my mind, not a reliable source:
Hobgoblins:
I remember some canon referring them of also being descended from Elves, although right at the beginning of the time, and their grudge against elves of today resulted from a fight between Corelion and Maglublyet, where the Hobgoblin deity lost a hand or an eye, not sure about this.
more detailed when i found the files again.
I also have some files from third party (d20) products, the "slayer guides to...." but I do not know if you are interested in it. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 22:29:57
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I'm trying to find ties between goblins and fey...the "Way of the Powrie" is in the Moonsea north (along with some other things) that make me feel as if there is a huge binding origin between gobs and fey.
So I'm wanting to make sure I don't write anything contrary to established canon when I try to finish up my Moonsea North history. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 22:56:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
It is already established in (1E?) canon that hobs are descended from orcs and goblins. I can't recall where.
Just checked the 1eMM, and BOY! is that sparse on non-combat info. LOL
No deal there, but it might be in something else.
I don't recall ever reading about a fight between Maglublyet and Corellon, just Gruumsh and Corellon (and Malor and Corellon). Seems Corellon picks a lot of fights... ebil bastitch.
I'm starting to get a sneaking suspician that a lot of the orc/Goblinoid myths may have a grain of truth; that at some point, the Seldarine decided they didn't want the 'ugly fey' around anymore, and carried on a genocidal 'war of extermination' within the Feywild itself.
Yeaaaaaaaah... definitely gonna use THAT. 
And they were eventually stopped by Titanthia and Auberone (the names I am using for my Sidhe Queen and King), who used their 'domain powers' within Faerie to hurl tsunamis against the Eladrin homeland. 
Yeah... I'm really liking this... perhaps Maglublyet is really Maelkith (Lost prince of the Svartálfar).  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Mar 2011 22:57:39 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 23:00:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
It is already established in (1E?) canon that hobs are descended from orcs and goblins. I can't recall where.
Just checked the 1eMM, and BOY! is that sparse on non-combat info. LOL
No deal there, but it might be in something else.
I don't recall ever reading about a fight between Maglublyet and Corellon, just Gruumsh and Corellon (and Malor and Corellon). Seems Corellon picks a lot of fights... ebil bastitch.
I'm starting to get a sneaking suspician that a lot of the orc/Goblinoid myths may have a grain of truth; that at some point, the Seldarine decided they didn't want the 'ugly fey' around anymore, and carried on a genocidal 'war of extermination' within the Feywild itself.
Yeaaaaaaaah... definitely gonna use THAT.
And they were eventually stopped by Titanthia and Auberone (the names I am using for my Sidhe Queen and King), who used their 'domain powers' within Faerie to hurl tsunamis against the Eladrin homeland.
Yeah... I'm really liking this... perhaps Maglublyet is really Maelkith (Lost prince of the Svartálfar).
Ohhhhh...I like that one. Maelkith (from the Thor comic) was one of my favorite baddies...he just didn't get enough action time.
I really like the idea though...he took his followers with him and they all changed to suit his now rather foul and evil disposition! Their sundering of ties with Faerie brought about shortened lives and such as well...and thus their desire to do away with all things Fey (including elves). The Hobgoblins and Bugbears came about from Maelkith's breeding attempts to reclaim power...or just as a natural occurance. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 23:38:10
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| I think the tale Markus is looking for is Dark Mirror in the anthology Realms of Valor. A fine short story, actually, by Salvatore. |
Paladinic Ethos
Saint Joran Nobleheart |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2011 : 08:35:45
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@ dalor:
In MY realms, the origins of Goblinoid races in Toril is linked to the arrival of the elves.
in -27.000 the first elves arrive, fleeing the destruction of their home-world. This destruction might very well be caused by the united goblinoid races there, which by this time had no secrecy or else, very similar to the Goblinoids in Eberron - empire building, strong caste-orientated species.
in -25.400 gold elves arrived on toril - eventually for the same reasons as the first elves - goblinoids followed them secretely through the gates.
after the arrival in toril, they had to go into secrecy, for their numbers were so dwindling low, that they could have never competed against the other races openly.
In the millennia of enslavement by dragons, illithids, beholders giantkin etc. they increased in numbers until they were able to settle all the lands of toril mainly through more and more escaped slaves, founding small tribes in the desolate regions of the world, and staying unnoticed as a "civilized" race.
The different goblinoid races then forgot more and more of their origins, and Hobgoblins, Bugbears and goblins started struggling for themselves. Forming only small regional tribes and clanholds, Hobgoblins and goblins eventually were found in the same tribes, and even some bugbears were included in some, rare, cases.
After a couple of centuries in freedom, given their high fertility and reproductionrate, they were able to first directly assault several of the ancient clanholds, since the dwarves were constantly engaged in wars with other enemies. This enabled the Goblinoids to strike from secrecy, and this is, were they conquered the first dwarven clanholds, of which some are held up to date.
The dwarven empire of holoraurar beneath southern amn is a perfect example for this. This is, according to my knowledge, the only "recognized" hobgoblin kingdom of goblinoids in the realms of today.
All the other kingomds or centers of power, are by far more secreticvely, and are seen as only an area of dense population by goblinoids of independant tribes - the stonelands, orsarauns, copper mts., high moor, other mt ranges in the north, the cloven mts. etc.etc.
actually, there is an evolving strong movement in the stonelands, actively scouting the remnants of oghrann beneath the tunlands ( tithulka and his bunch )
in the realms of today, the goblinoids seemingly have made no progress, but this only to the civilized races.
this is the storyline i put down years ago, not fully fledged, but workable.
In the east, I pretty much follow the story of markustay, as it was that the hobgoblins there tried to hold to their "homeworld" habits, but learned the hard way, that humans are much more difficult to conquer than elves, due to their much higher reproduction.
So there also, they have learned to stay hidden. The "drummers" sent out by them into western faerun are therefore openly welcomed in all areas where the goblinoid races have some organization. and even some long-distance trade and alliances have been forged since then.
Hope it canbe of any help. |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2011 : 13:53:14
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@dalor:
I KNEW I HAD THIS PIECE OF LORE ;)
In the 2e "complete dwarves" on pages nr. 8-9 it is revealed:
"after the first dwarves died after their creation by the maker, the dark gods bound the maker while he was resting from his work, and created their own races to compete with the dwarves, orcs, goblins, hobgoblins evil giants and many other were created then"
so, against my version above, the "canon" says that goblins and hobgoblins were forged on the same smithy, and after the evil gods ruined the foundation smithy, it blew up, and the sparks from the ruins were the dragon eggs which rained upon faerun at -30.000 DR
so it COULD be said, that according to this information, goblins and hobgoblins are really native to toril, and not migrated in, and exist since before -30.000 DR
I suppose that, despite this is not true regarding giants, this is a very trustworthy source for the creation of the goblinoid races, including bugbears.
2e Giantcraft, Page 10
after the ostorian war against the dragonkind, at -25.000 DR, Othea foresaw the coming of humanoids, including "goblins", which could easily be seen as including hogboblins and bugbears.
This is th emost accurate I could possibly find.
Hope it helps
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2011 : 17:03:09
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The most accurate legends regarding the ancient Dracotitan War come from dwarves, who apparently witnessed the conflict*. This is why I feel dwarves have either been on Toril MUCH longer then previously thought (their 'appearance' in the Yehinmals simply means that that is when humans/Elves took notice of them), OR the Dracotitan War began somewhere else, and oldest legends speak of that time (which is the way I am leaning in regards to my pre-history).
@Jakuta - I prefer for my goblinoids to have a slightly more noble story (in other words, as their own myths tell, they were victims of prejudice). I interpret goblin/Orcish folklore this way: Where it says 'the other gods didn't give them any land', I think of that as 'they were forced off their lands by the other races'.
MY Fćwylt includes all manner of fey, Goblins (including Ondonti Orcs), Giants, and trolls. Othea was an Archfey who joined her energy (anchored) to a mountain on Toril, rather then join most of her kin when they fled the world. Annam (the all-father) was a Prime Ordial who created the planer (true) Giants on the True World, before it was shattered (Sundered). Ergo, terrestrial giants are actually of giant and fey stock. The reason why ogres follow Vaprak is because he was the trolkyn leader (Archfey?) in the Fćwylt, and the first ogres were created there and revered him. When the majority of the goblinoids left the Fćwylt, some Irda (True Ogres) went with them, and those Ogres spread their own faith amongst the inferior terrestrial (prime material) ogres.
To me, the prime material is all about corruption: It is the shattered remains of the 'perfect world' (Eden?), where death and decay eats away at everything. This is why planer races are 'more beautiful' (even goblinoids are slightly better looking), why they appear larger and more majestic, why they live longer, etc, etc...
This thread has me thinking along new paths... what if the goblins owned the Feywild first? What if a race of 'small people' (from whence all others come) inhabited the Dreamscape (Plane of Dreams), before it was 'invaded' by the Sidhe (Fey/LeShay)? That would explain why they are associated with 'night terrors'.
I see it going down like this: the War of Light & Darkness breaks-out on the One (True) World, and the primordials fight with the new 'deities' which have arisen amongst the 'lower beings'. The first sun is destroyed by Asgoroth, and the world is plunged into darkness (and begins to break apart). Most of the First (Creator) races are killed, but some survive, and many flee to 'other realms'. Ao creates a myriad of worlds from the fragments of the One World - pale reflections of what once was, and might-have-been. The Creators are scattered, and many Shay (fey) enter the Dreamscape - one of the very few planes that existed then. They discover the goblins there, and begin a war of extermination against them, and the goblins are themselves forced to flee their own plane (many of whom settle in the Shadoworld). Small pockets of them manage to hide within the Feywild, in lands the others did not want, and survive 'till this day.
And by 'goblins', I mean all races originally from the Dreamlands, which would include trolls as well (although Feywild trolls are smallish, like dwarves).
So the world was corrupted (probably when Asgorath "cast Zotha down", who I now think may have been Tharizdun), and immediately after which Asgoroth makes a play for the One World by seeding it with his progeny - dragons - and The Godwar breaks out, and all Hell breaks loose (literally). Annam commands his children to stop the dragons, and the Creator Races (who were 'puny' compared to these other beings) 'cowered in darkness'. That corruption is why upper-planer beings (in MY cosmology) avoid spending too much time in the Prime Material. The material plane actually acts as a shield between the upper and lower worlds - its where all the negative and positive energies meet. On the other hand, lower-plane being try to spend as much time as possible corrupting the world - it is their 'beach head' in the war against the heavens.
So goblins become the tortured remnants of dreams, cast from their own homes in the before-time, and forced to live in a world that brings them nothing but pain.
Does anyone know what the goblin/orc language is called?
@Dalor - Another fan of Marvel mythology! Yes, I fell in love with the concept of Maelkith when I first read of him. As I've developed my own proto-mythos for D&D I have made him the father of Gru-Maas (Gruumsh), 'twin' of Cor'Elion, who's father is Frey - Prince of the Light Elves (Vanir/Valor). They both had the same mother (Titania, Queen of the Le'Shay), and were very close until a woman (Aurashnee) drove a wedge between them. Ergo, both Cor-Elion and Gru-Maas were princes, of the Light and Dark elves (Svartálfar), respectively. Maelkith (the dark-alfen king) disappeared, and Gru-Maas left Faerie to lead 'his' people. That's my own homebrew stuff, of course.
*It says as much in Giantcraft - much of our knowledge from that period comes from "Dwarven Writings". |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Mar 2011 10:25:15 |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2011 : 17:41:23
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@markus,
completely can follow your approach, especially with irish / northern mythology approach.
Reason why I put down the "canon" here is, that this forum stated that ONLY canon shouldbe posted here... confused me a bit.
and according to this, the 2e giantcraft says, that the ogres were the result of a dalliance between Othea, Annams ( father of giants ) wife and Vaprak.
The son was the first true Ogre, from whom all others are.
so, can it then be said, that - according to official canon the dwarves creation myth, also about theother races is right, or not? |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2011 : 20:08:21
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quote:
Arik
It is already established in (1E?) canon that hobs are descended from orcs and goblins. I can't recall where.
I was mistaken. One sentence in GAZ10 suggested that some hobs from one tribe were descended from goblin and orog stock (and that these orogs are likely descended from orc and ogre stock). It doesn't apply to all hobs. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2011 : 20:52:53
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so my information is not right?
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2011 : 21:39:22
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| I cannot say, JK. But your information is unrelated to my mistaken claim about hob origins. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2011 : 23:00:43
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@arik, was meant in general.
i thought the 2e race-books very reliable. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2011 : 23:54:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakuta Khan
@arik, was meant in general.
i thought the 2e race-books very reliable.
GAZ 10 is the "Orcs of Thar" from the Broken Lands of Mystara...it is not a Forgotten Realms, or even Advanced Dungeons and Dragons sourcebook...it is from Dungeons and Dragons...a completely different game.
I LOVE that book...but it isn't a Realms book. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2011 : 10:38:10
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In answer to your OP question then, there simply isn't any.
@Jakuta - CBoD is NOT canon either - not in regards to FR. In fact, quite a bit of the info in there contradicts stuff in Dwarves Deep, written by Ed himself.
quote:
Originally posted by Jakuta Khan
Reason why I put down the "canon" here is, that this forum stated that ONLY canon shouldbe posted here... confused me a bit.
Sorry 
Its why I put 'Homebrew:' or 'IMHO', or 'pure conjecture' with a lot of my posts.
Unfortunately, although we have 20-or-so forums for canon, we have none dedicated purely to 'homebrew musings', or 'other worlds', or even possibly 'alternate Realms'.
This is why I am finding it harder and harder to contribute here - as my own D&D world moves further from the Realms, this becomes an inappropriate forum for most of my thoughts. 
I had more here, but this wasn't the place for a new gripe (or an old one with a new coat of paint). It was along the lines of 'running out of new things to talk about' .  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Mar 2011 10:43:21 |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2011 : 11:32:37
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@markus:
sorry for this then, my mistake.
so, as I see it, I will have to ask Mr. ED again 
interesting if he will post any information. |
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Andrekan
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2011 : 19:53:25
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The Feywild consist of many aspects of the wilderness from Fairy to Formorian. Arvandor, the Deep Wilds, and the Gate of the Moon all have direct connection to the Feywild through the Astral Dominions.
We must remember Auril, Malar, and Umberlee have places in the Deep Wilds/Fury's Heart.
Maglubiyet and goblins are so greedy and destructive they fall into a place similar to Bane in the Barrens of Doom and Despair or Bane Hold.
Orcs came to Faerun through a portal opened by greedy rebellious Murhorand wizards that created The Orcgate Wars. During the conflict Gruumsh slew the Sun God Re, the first known deicide of the Realms.. |
"Those two talk only of drink, riches, women, brawling, and magic, so ye've a one in five chance..." Quote from "Elminster in Hell" |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2011 : 20:35:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Andrekan
The Feywild consist of many aspects of the wilderness from Fairy to Formorian. Arvandor, the Deep Wilds, and the Gate of the Moon all have direct connection to the Feywild through the Astral Dominions.
We must remember Auril, Malar, and Umberlee have places in the Deep Wilds/Fury's Heart.
Maglubiyet and goblins are so greedy and destructive they fall into a place similar to Bane in the Barrens of Doom and Despair or Bane Hold.
Orcs came to Faerun through a portal opened by greedy rebellious Murhorand wizards that created The Orcgate Wars. During the conflict Gruumsh slew the Sun God Re, the first known deicide of the Realms..
Grey Orcs came to the Forgotten Realms by gates...Green (or Mountain) orcs did not. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2011 : 19:20:35
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Correct.
Red and black were created by the Red Wizards through selective breeding programs.
Ondonti's origins are unknown.
I thought there were a couple of others, but I can't recall them ATM.
The other goblinoids (which sometimes even includes ogres, trolls, and even gnolls) have no specific origins. On those 'sometimes' races, Gnolls have been around since at least the time of the creators (although I'm not sure how that can be, but its canon), and we know where terrestrial ogres come from (Othea + Vaprak), but not the planer variety (which I think were all originally of the Irda). Trolls I think have a fey origin, although obviously something nasty has happened to them since.
'True goblins' have several offshoots (Blues, Xvarts, Dekanter, etc), and I would trace the race back to whatever Romanesque culture gave birth to the City of Grodd (Into the Dragon's Lair module/Death of the Dragon novel). That seemed to be the height of their civilization.
The first mention of Orcs happens during the Crown Wars (Battle of god's Theater), and I suppose we can assume that orcs and goblins arrived in the realms around the same time. That still doesn't help though - did they all 'arrive' (on Toril) for THAT battle, or were they around even earlier? It would be interesting if that were their actual time-entry point, because of the proximity of the Stonelands (and therefor at least two other major goblin civilizations).
Could the goblinoids been lead by Maglubiylet into Realmspace at that time? It seems unlikely the orcish pantheon would have been responsible, because it is canon that the Orcish pantheon only entered Realmspace during the Orcgate Wars. I have my suspicions that Mag is actually an older deity, and this just reaffirms that (if it were true... conjecturing here again.. sorry)
EDIT: The Battle of God's Theater took place in -10,700... a mere 700 years before the 'fall' of the dark elves. Hmmmmmm... interesting.. methinks evil was afoot. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Mar 2011 21:27:49 |
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Asharak
Learned Scribe
France
268 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2011 : 20:18:53
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| Occidian is sacked by an orcs horde lead by an hakeashar circa -24400 DR... |
"Soyez réalistes : demandez l'impossible"
Sorry for my English... it's not my native tongue. |
Edited by - Asharak on 22 Mar 2011 20:22:31 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2011 : 21:33:06
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Interesting.
(I sometimes sympathize with the designers - I find the preponderance of established lore often gets in it's own way).
So Fiends brought the first (green) orcs - and perhaps goblins - into the Realms? That helps establish some other stuff I am working on (that goblinoids are corrupted fey), but I'm not too keen on that specific bit.
Like, who is Haeshkarr?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Mar 2011 21:34:44 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2011 : 22:47:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Interesting.
(I sometimes sympathize with the designers - I find the preponderance of established lore often gets in it's own way).
So Fiends brought the first (green) orcs - and perhaps goblins - into the Realms? That helps establish some other stuff I am working on (that goblinoids are corrupted fey), but I'm not too keen on that specific bit.
Like, who is Haeshkarr?
It isn't a who...it is a what. A monster.
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 23 Mar 2011 01:45:07 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2011 : 01:49:13
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An excerpt from the description of the Ondonti:
quote:
These close cousins to the gray orc embraced the worship Eldath centuries ago and have basked in her glory so long, they have grown more akin (to the) fey.
Strong basis for argument that Markus has that the orcs were once Fey if you ask me! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 23 Mar 2011 01:49:44 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2011 : 11:12:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Like, who is Haeshkarr?
It isn't a who...it is a what. A monster.
Well, Haeshkarr is a monster, but he's a "who"... Although some sources here in Candlekeep said the orcs were lead by "a" Haeshkarr, this demon originally appears in Elves of Evermeet, and then in Evermeet: Island of Elves.
You can check Mrs. Cunningham's discussion page about this character/monster: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13887&whichpage=8
However, if the attack was lead by a "hakeashar", it is a monster, related to the nishruu, that feeds on magic. It is cited on Lost Empires of Faerun, page 186, and here is a link to a 2e monster compendium entry: http://www.lomion.de/cmm/hakeasha.php |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 23 Mar 2011 11:23:32 |
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Goblin Origins
