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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2011 :  06:23:29  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
If you chop the limbs off a troll do they each grow into a new troll, or do they die as the torso regenerates them?

Can one keep a troll skull as a trophy, or will it rapidly flesh out into a complete (and probably hostile) troll?

I'm interested in knowing how others have resolved these issues. Are there any good references for the topic of troll anatomy?

[/Ayrik]

Fellfire
Master of Realmslore

1965 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2011 :  06:28:16  Show Profile Send Fellfire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My understanding was that a severed limb would grow a new troll as a troll would regrow the same severed limb. I do not know the extent of this. Nor have I ever had any players want to take troll-trophies. They are usually pretty quick to torch the remains. I do remember reading about troll-gut rope somewhere.

Misanthorpe

Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.

"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises

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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3750 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2011 :  06:34:09  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'll agree with that. I seem to remember a scene in one of the Drizzt books where the party was stuck on a moor at night, and was attacked by trolls. They had to torch EVERY PIECE, on his warning that even one piece might regenerate.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2011 :  06:41:27  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, a single limb will grow a whole new troll.

On the subject of bones...obviously they do regenerate, as when said limb is regenerating the bones are coming with it, but I don't know if the bones alone would regenerate, at least not after being fire blasted. It takes over eight hours to burn a human body to ashes, at over 1000 degress, wild having to flip them over. And you still have teeth left after that. Wild trolls are more vulnerable to fire, it be too huge a difference.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2011 :  06:44:22  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My trophy-collecting PC will be very disappointed that she can't add a big troll skull to the mantle with her other kills.

Any thoughts about chemicals, acids, electrical charges, extreme heat/cold, or other (nonmagical) methods to "kill" such bone tissue and prevent regeneration? My players are certain to ask.

[/Ayrik]
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore

1965 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2011 :  06:47:15  Show Profile Send Fellfire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dried out bone is dead. I imagine a nice long soak in a mild acid bath to kill any remaining regenerating cells would realistically do the trick.

Misanthorpe

Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.

"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises

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Edited by - Fellfire on 19 Feb 2011 06:49:40
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2011 :  06:49:52  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, acid works just as well on trolls as fire does, but like fire takes a while to get bones. So I'd imagine giving bones a dip in an acid bath should kill the regenerating bits.

I've always figured that freezing should work as well on trolls as fire does as they work on similar principles. Burning dries up the water in a cell, causing it to shrivle up and die. Freezing crystalizes the water in a cell, causing it to burst an die. Though some trolls have a magical resitance to frost/cold, so that explains that.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2011 :  06:53:03  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Are any substances known to be particularly toxic to trolls or regenerating creatures?

[Edit: ... and not dangerously toxic to everyone else?]

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 19 Feb 2011 06:53:32
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2011 :  06:55:48  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't think so. In fact I almost want to say they're immune to poison, but I also could be completely off on that.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2011 :  06:55:50  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I suppose troll simulacra wouldn't be advisable (one of the spell components is a chunk of flesh from the simulated creature).

Troll parts in flesh golems? Trollems? Grolls?

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 19 Feb 2011 06:56:17
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore

1965 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2011 :  06:59:13  Show Profile Send Fellfire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But, and if I may use a real world comparison here. I once found an alligator skull down South. Get this, being young and ignorant, I threw it in my trunk, and drove back to MA. It stunk! When I got home, I figured I'd soak it in bleach. There musta still been some pretty big chunks of brain or what have you in the case, cause that didn't work so well either. So I decided I'd stick this bleach soaked rotten brain skull in my mother's oven at 350 degrees for an hour. I thought it smelled bad before. I ended up putting it on the roof for a month or so, and now it hangs on my wall. Years later I learned the best way to clean a skull is to put it on top of a red-ant mound for a few days. They will clean out all the edible bits for you. Here comes the question. If you did this with a troll skull, would the miniscule bits in the ants stomachs begin to regenerate? What if the scavengers were, say, coyotes instead? Would a troll eventually burst from their innards, or would the stomach acid prevent this?

Misanthorpe

Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.

"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises

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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2011 :  07:04:31  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Troll flesh golems....You know, I could swear I've seen that in a 3.5e book. One of the monster mainuals, or perhaps the fiend folio...

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2011 :  07:11:30  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't think many scavengers and carrion feeders will touch troll. Plus they'd have to consume it very quickly (3hp/round). The same would apply to their digestive stomach acids.

I think there must be a practical limit, a minimum quantity of tissue to continue regeneration. I suppose it's theoretically possible to hack a troll into such finely pulverized pulp that it will no longer regenerate.

How about trollkilling via necromantic magics? Perhaps death spell ("snuffs out the life forces of creatures ... instantly and irrevocably"), energy drain, or something similar? Are there any animated/undead trolls? Troll zombies, skellies, vamps?

I think I'll require my PC commissions an (expensive!) alchemical formulation, trollmaldehyde, for this purpose. She'll probably also want to have the thing metal-plated like all the others. Perhaps an (expensive!) magical metal which sustains a permanent heat metal effect?

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 19 Feb 2011 07:14:57
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore

1965 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2011 :  07:19:59  Show Profile Send Fellfire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Excellent points, regarding necromantic magic. I honestly do not know.

I think the sherm and the electroplate ought to make the skull safe, unless you were thinking of using a ghost troll.

Misanthorpe

Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.

"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises

Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out


Edited by - Fellfire on 19 Feb 2011 07:22:28
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2011 :  07:22:31  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Nah, I use ghosts sparingly, and not at all for insignificant brainless creatures like trolls.

[/Ayrik]
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2011 :  07:22:49  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've seen a werewolf zombie, so I guess anything is possible (same principle).

I remember reading somewhere that trolls have no natural predators - they taste so bad nothing wants to eat them, even if starving.

I wonder... if you reduce a troll to zero HP and then hold it there (stasis?), could you possibly turn it into a zombie?

A troll vampire would be like combining Drizzt with Chuck Norris... but fun to think about.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore

1965 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2011 :  07:31:24  Show Profile Send Fellfire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A Troll-bane Necromantic Dwarven Great Axe, perhaps? Intriguing.

Misanthorpe

Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.

"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises

Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2011 :  07:32:10  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I suppose the only natural control on troll population is their food supply. Can they survive (and multiply) through cannibalism?

[/Ayrik]
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3750 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2011 :  07:53:01  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Arik- yes, I think it's been stated somewhere that they can.

MT- didn't you know? Drizzt IS (FR's) Chuck Norris!!

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2011 :  08:02:01  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd imagine black dragons play a part in keeping the troll population down. They share a territory, probably compete for food. The dragons may not eat the trolls, but lions don't eat hyenas, either.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2011 :  08:03:04  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Chuck Norris might be an uninspired actor but I never really thought of him as the tormented emo sort.

So when a troll vamp feeds, does the victim return as a troll? The troll+vampire regeneration (and shapechanging, incorporeal mist form, etc) might get a little out of hand, though at least the allergy to sunlight keeps things a little under control.

[/Ayrik]
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3750 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2011 :  08:10:34  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arik

Chuck Norris might be an uninspired actor but I never really thought of him as the tormented emo sort.

So when a troll vamp feeds, does the victim return as a troll? The troll+vampire regeneration (and shapechanging, incorporeal mist form, etc) might get a little out of hand, though at least the allergy to sunlight keeps things a little under control.




ROFLMAO!!!

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

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Kentinal
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4684 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2011 :  09:01:41  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Err a Troll is a Troll, if harmed well repair, if not killed, it is a single creature. Trolls do not occur from cutting a finger off to make a new one. Trolls have children just like humans and also die of old age.
The regenerative ability just makes it harder to kill a troll.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3750 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2011 :  09:13:43  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes and no. They are a single creature- but so is a worm. Cut a worm in half, you end up with two worms. Same thing with a troll. And worms are hermaphroditic. Just sayin'..... (Does anyone know if trolls have a gender? I've never seen any mention in the sources.)

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2011 :  09:16:21  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So they're like starfish. Throwing a troll into a guillotine blender trap only makes a lot more trolls.

[/Ayrik]
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2011 :  09:18:51  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Everything I've seen says that trolls are indeed separated by gender. It's not easy to tell the difference, though.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

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Quale
Master of Realmslore

1757 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2011 :  09:24:08  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I houseruled that they need energy to regenerate, they need a contact with earth (nonacidic). And they don't multiply cause it's still one spirit.
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3750 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2011 :  09:29:32  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So are clones, but no one seems to have a problem with that one.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2011 :  10:16:23  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Chosen of Asmodeus

Everything I've seen says that trolls are indeed separated by gender. It's not easy to tell the difference, though.
I hope the trolls themselves can make that determination with some accuracy.

[/Ayrik]
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2011 :  12:58:46  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I vaguely remember something about females being slightly bigger. But I could be thinking of something else; that's a fairly common thing with monster races in fantasy.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1280 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2011 :  15:08:43  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A really good source is mongoose publishings A Slayers Guide to Trolls. Its the closest thing I could find for finding good ecology lore on trolls. According to this tome several things mentioned in this thread are rumors that are not based on the real truth of trolls.

First, severed parts of trolls wither and die when not re-attached to the trolls body just as normal creature parts do. So a troll skull/head can make a perfectly fine trophy and wont try to bite long after its clinical death. A trolls torso is the only part that can regenerate back its limbs or head. Troll blood is a highly sought after commodity for wizards versed in brewing regenerative elixers such as biomancers, necromancers and druids. [There is no mention in the Guide what the limit in size is for a trolls torso to regrow, and what the centerpoint for the regrowth should be. I theorize it should be a trolls heart, as troll blood seems to be the main drive for its powerful regenerative physiology.]

Second, trolls do have genders. Females are indeed (slightly) bigger than the males. Female trolls don't have other dimorphism to distiguish them such as breasts or wider hips so they are nearly impossible to recognise. The main part that trolls find attractive in eachother is the size of their flexibel noses, their smell and the length of their emotive flexible hairstumps.

Lastly, undead trolls are certainly possible. Trolls that die of old age or from a disease called gunge gradually lose their regeneration, having to take a great deal more time to heal their wounds. A troll that has completely lost its regeneration would make a fine zombie or skeleton. [A vampire stupid enough to bite a troll would likely savor the potency of its victims blood - I can imagine a vampire becoming addicted to it - but the moment the troll is drained of all its "lifeforce" its regenerative abilities would be lost and this vampire-trollspawn would be no better than a normal humanoid vampspawn]

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