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Ionik Knight
Learned Scribe
USA
222 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Sep 2010 : 04:31:24
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I read the part where fey'ri count as elves for all effects and it got me wondering...what about elven prestige classes? What about the elfblades? And, assuming for the sake of argument that it's not a moon-elf exclusive item, how about a "good" fey'ri and Moonblades?
Personally I say yes to the prestige classes, excepting Elven High Mage. I'm not sure about the elfblades, but I say no to Moonblades.
What do all of you think?
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IngoDjan
Learned Scribe
Brazil
146 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2010 : 04:44:25
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| Well... Yes to everything. They are elves, though their demon heritage. |
Ingo Djan
DUNGEON MASTER AO OF THE DIAMONDS!"I see the future repeat the past. It all is a museum of great news. The Time do not stop." |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2010 : 05:36:19
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| Pretty sure all the fey'ri are of gold elf descent, which rules out moonblades, regardless of alignment. |
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Penknight
Senior Scribe
USA
538 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2010 : 05:44:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Pretty sure all the fey'ri are of gold elf descent, which rules out moonblades, regardless of alignment.
Exactly.  And yes, any elven prestige class is open to fey'ri. They are still elves for all intents and purposes of qualifying for them. |
Telethian Phoenix
Pathfinder Reference Document |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2010 : 06:06:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Pretty sure all the fey'ri are of gold elf descent, which rules out moonblades, regardless of alignment.
Pretty much. The fey'ri are just a specific, true-breeding line of elven tiefling. |
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Ionik Knight
Learned Scribe
USA
222 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2010 : 06:23:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Pretty sure all the fey'ri are of gold elf descent, which rules out moonblades, regardless of alignment.
Last I heard there was no canon lore to say that only Moon Elves could compete (and survive) for the Throne of Evermeet. Only that all known survivors/wielders of Moonblades were moon-elves, and all known sun-elf competitors had been slain/rejected as unworthy by the Moonblades.
If I'm out of date please educate me. |
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Pun'd and parody'd. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2010 : 16:06:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Ionik Knight
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Pretty sure all the fey'ri are of gold elf descent, which rules out moonblades, regardless of alignment.
Last I heard there was no canon lore to say that only Moon Elves could compete (and survive) for the Throne of Evermeet. Only that all known survivors/wielders of Moonblades were moon-elves, and all known sun-elf competitors had been slain/rejected as unworthy by the Moonblades.
If I'm out of date please educate me.
It's never been explicitly stated that a gold elf couldn't wield a moonblade... But it is known that no gold elf has wielded one, that the (in-canon) guy who created them said they were for moon elves, and that the blades are called moonblades.
It's pretty clear that the intent was for them to be limited to moon elves, but TSR/WotC, working with the "mustn't exclude anyone!" mindset, never stated that. Actually, they were never intended to be available to PCs, but since they were in a novel, they had to be available for PCs. 
If I was DMing, there wouldn't be a chance for a non-moon elf to wield a moonblade. Certainly not a fey'ri! |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 05 Sep 2010 16:07:21 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2010 : 16:27:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If I was DMing, there wouldn't be a chance for a non-moon elf to wield a moonblade. Certainly not a fey'ri!
*sigh* I think I have to go with Wooly on this one. I wouldn't allow PCs to even have a moonblade unless they went through some very, very difficult trials and it still might result in their complete and utter destruction. And Fey'ri are pretty much right out. Though I don't have a problem with them doing other Elven things such as weapons and PrCs. |
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Ionik Knight
Learned Scribe
USA
222 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2010 : 17:12:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If I was DMing, there wouldn't be a chance for a non-moon elf to wield a moonblade. Certainly not a fey'ri!
*sigh* I think I have to go with Wooly on this one. I wouldn't allow PCs to even have a moonblade unless they went through some very, very difficult trials and it still might result in their complete and utter destruction. And Fey'ri are pretty much right out. Though I don't have a problem with them doing other Elven things such as weapons and PrCs.
Hmmm, my players are all green and only know what I've told them about the Realms plus none of them are playing elves. I think I have to keep the idea of the Moonblades being a tool to unify the elves rather than dictate that only moon elves can rule Evermeet. Of course I don't have any plans to include a moonblade in the player's field of play anyway, so it's all more of academic interest than anything else.
I do have plans for a CN fey'ri NPC to interact occasionly with the pc's, but she'll be a fencing Bladesinger and have no use for a longsword.
She will, of course, be hiding her true nature and attempting to be more elven than any elf. She'll also be looking to recover elven artifacts and eventually cleanup Myth Drannor... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2010 : 17:26:23
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| So you're moving away from the idea that moonblades were meant to select a ruler for Evermeet? Because that part is canon. |
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IngoDjan
Learned Scribe
Brazil
146 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2010 : 17:38:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Pretty sure all the fey'ri are of gold elf descent, which rules out moonblades, regardless of alignment.
So, Arilyn should never have a moonblade. |
Ingo Djan
DUNGEON MASTER AO OF THE DIAMONDS!"I see the future repeat the past. It all is a museum of great news. The Time do not stop." |
Edited by - IngoDjan on 05 Sep 2010 17:42:29 |
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Ionik Knight
Learned Scribe
USA
222 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2010 : 18:10:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So you're moving away from the idea that moonblades were meant to select a ruler for Evermeet? Because that part is canon.
Well my campaign starts in 1373DR so Evermeet already has a ruler. But I don't exclude sun elves from the potential pool of canidates. Thus in my Realms a sun elf could claim a Moonblade, but none have succeeded in doing so as yet.
Again for me Moonblades are more of academic interest than anything else. |
Fools to right of them,
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2010 : 18:28:54
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quote:
Originally posted by IngoDjan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Pretty sure all the fey'ri are of gold elf descent, which rules out moonblades, regardless of alignment.
So, Arilyn should never have a moonblade.
Arylin is half-moon elf so it's fine. But I feel that half-elves would probably have a harder time gaining a Moonblade. Arylin is the exception to the rule. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2010 : 18:45:01
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quote:
Originally posted by IngoDjan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Pretty sure all the fey'ri are of gold elf descent, which rules out moonblades, regardless of alignment.
So, Arilyn should never have a moonblade.
As Diffan noted, she's half-moon elf. Her grandfather was the one with the Kingsword. As far has her elven blood is concerned, she couldn't have a better bloodline. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 05 Sep 2010 18:45:36 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2010 : 18:46:03
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| I can't help but notice that no one replied to my earlier statement. Several gold elf families still have unclaimed Moonblades, so it's not inconceivable that one of them might have a worthy blade-heir among them. Not saying it's likely, but it IS possible. Josidiah was just one example of a possible candidate. And given that his mother was a Moon elf, he might qualify based on that alone, in spite of "technically" being a gold elf. So there's really no reason a good fey-ri could not also. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2010 : 19:27:06
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| I can agree with Alystra that Gold elves have the possibility of obtaining and using a Moonblade. When sun and moon elves mate, normaly the child will take after one side of the parent (be it Gold or Moon) but have blood of both. So if a human/moon elf is capable of wielding a Moonblade I don't see why a Gold/Moon elf would be automatically denied. |
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Ionik Knight
Learned Scribe
USA
222 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2010 : 20:19:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I can't help but notice that no one replied to my earlier statement. Several gold elf families still have unclaimed Moonblades, so it's not inconceivable that one of them might have a worthy blade-heir among them. Not saying it's likely, but it IS possible. Josidiah was just one example of a possible candidate. And given that his mother was a Moon elf, he might qualify based on that alone, in spite of "technically" being a gold elf. So there's really no reason a good fey-ri could not also.
The reason I wouldn't allow in my campaign is the Moonblades intended purpose of selecting a ruler to unify the elves of Evermeet. Somehow I don't think a fey'ri ruler would be very unifying, even if they were the epitome of fairness, justice, wisdom, and goodness.
Some folks (not me) hold that a "Moon" blade can only be wielded by a worthy "Moon" elf. I differ because I do not believe such selection criteria could ever unify the elves under one ruler...the intended purpose of these relics after all. |
Fools to right of them,
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2010 : 20:44:56
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A Sun Elf wielding a Moonblade would create some MAJOR chaos for the Elves.  
Right? |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
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then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2010 : 21:39:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Ionik Knight
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I can't help but notice that no one replied to my earlier statement. Several gold elf families still have unclaimed Moonblades, so it's not inconceivable that one of them might have a worthy blade-heir among them. Not saying it's likely, but it IS possible. Josidiah was just one example of a possible candidate. And given that his mother was a Moon elf, he might qualify based on that alone, in spite of "technically" being a gold elf. So there's really no reason a good fey-ri could not also.
The reason I wouldn't allow in my campaign is the Moonblades intended purpose of selecting a ruler to unify the elves of Evermeet. Somehow I don't think a fey'ri ruler would be very unifying, even if they were the epitome of fairness, justice, wisdom, and goodness.
Some folks (not me) hold that a "Moon" blade can only be wielded by a worthy "Moon" elf. I differ because I do not believe such selection criteria could ever unify the elves under one ruler...the intended purpose of these relics after all.
The purpose wasn't to unite the elves. The purpose was to select a ruler for Evermeet. And the reason moon elves were favored for this was because moon elves are more adaptable and more likely to get along with other races.
I think if gold elves were capable of wielding moonblades, we would have seen it by now. Especially in the very first drawing of the blades, when the blades were easier to be worthy of. |
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Ionik Knight
Learned Scribe
USA
222 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2010 : 23:38:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ionik Knight
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I can't help but notice that no one replied to my earlier statement. Several gold elf families still have unclaimed Moonblades, so it's not inconceivable that one of them might have a worthy blade-heir among them. Not saying it's likely, but it IS possible. Josidiah was just one example of a possible candidate. And given that his mother was a Moon elf, he might qualify based on that alone, in spite of "technically" being a gold elf. So there's really no reason a good fey-ri could not also.
The reason I wouldn't allow in my campaign is the Moonblades intended purpose of selecting a ruler to unify the elves of Evermeet. Somehow I don't think a fey'ri ruler would be very unifying, even if they were the epitome of fairness, justice, wisdom, and goodness.
Some folks (not me) hold that a "Moon" blade can only be wielded by a worthy "Moon" elf. I differ because I do not believe such selection criteria could ever unify the elves under one ruler...the intended purpose of these relics after all.
The purpose wasn't to unite the elves. The purpose was to select a ruler for Evermeet. And the reason moon elves were favored for this was because moon elves are more adaptable and more likely to get along with other races.
I think if gold elves were capable of wielding moonblades, we would have seen it by now. Especially in the very first drawing of the blades, when the blades were easier to be worthy of.
The purpose of the Moonblades was indeed to select a good/worthy/noble ruler of Evermeet. The purpose of Evermeet was to provide a retreat for all elves. Since the ruler of Evermeet would have to reign over a large segment of sun elves; it seems highly unlikely to me that sun elves would be excluded from the selection process. Thus I would say the reasons pure-blooded sun elves have failed to claim a blade are personal character flaws.
As a disclaimer let me say I've never read the novels that talk about Moonblades. If there is something in those that states moon elves were favored or sun elves were barred please let me know.
BTW I hope you're enjoying the discussion as much as I. |
Fools to right of them,
Jesters to left of them,
Clowns in front of them
Pun'd and parody'd. |
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IngoDjan
Learned Scribe
Brazil
146 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2010 : 23:40:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by IngoDjan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Pretty sure all the fey'ri are of gold elf descent, which rules out moonblades, regardless of alignment.
So, Arilyn should never have a moonblade.
As Diffan noted, she's half-moon elf. Her grandfather was the one with the Kingsword. As far has her elven blood is concerned, she couldn't have a better bloodline.
She's half-human too. So his elven blood is as tainted as a half human as a fey'ri. Elaine don't stop of remember this to us in his novels. Just question of point of view and I'm sure that every DM have yours. But, let me ask you something. If Arylin had a Fey'ri mother, the moonblade would accept her?
If not, then you wouldn't accept fey'ri with moonblade in your game in any circunstances.
If so, then Daemonfey can have moonblades.
Particularly, I allow PCs playing good and nobles Fey'ri swing moonblades against her foes.
P.S.: Nice topic!!! Very good debate! |
Ingo Djan
DUNGEON MASTER AO OF THE DIAMONDS!"I see the future repeat the past. It all is a museum of great news. The Time do not stop." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2010 : 00:22:24
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quote:
Originally posted by IngoDjan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by IngoDjan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Pretty sure all the fey'ri are of gold elf descent, which rules out moonblades, regardless of alignment.
So, Arilyn should never have a moonblade.
As Diffan noted, she's half-moon elf. Her grandfather was the one with the Kingsword. As far has her elven blood is concerned, she couldn't have a better bloodline.
She's half-human too. So his elven blood is as tainted as a half human as a fey'ri. Elaine don't stop of remember this to us in his novels. Just question of point of view and I'm sure that every DM have yours. But, let me ask you something. If Arylin had a Fey'ri mother, the moonblade would accept her?
If not, then you wouldn't accept fey'ri with moonblade in your game in any circunstances.
If so, then Daemonfey can have moonblades.
Particularly, I allow PCs playing good and nobles Fey'ri swing moonblades against her foes.
P.S.: Nice topic!!! Very good debate!
The issue wasn't her human blood. The issue was her moon elf blood -- which is something fey'ri don't have. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2010 : 00:31:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Ionik Knight
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ionik Knight
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I can't help but notice that no one replied to my earlier statement. Several gold elf families still have unclaimed Moonblades, so it's not inconceivable that one of them might have a worthy blade-heir among them. Not saying it's likely, but it IS possible. Josidiah was just one example of a possible candidate. And given that his mother was a Moon elf, he might qualify based on that alone, in spite of "technically" being a gold elf. So there's really no reason a good fey-ri could not also.
The reason I wouldn't allow in my campaign is the Moonblades intended purpose of selecting a ruler to unify the elves of Evermeet. Somehow I don't think a fey'ri ruler would be very unifying, even if they were the epitome of fairness, justice, wisdom, and goodness.
Some folks (not me) hold that a "Moon" blade can only be wielded by a worthy "Moon" elf. I differ because I do not believe such selection criteria could ever unify the elves under one ruler...the intended purpose of these relics after all.
The purpose wasn't to unite the elves. The purpose was to select a ruler for Evermeet. And the reason moon elves were favored for this was because moon elves are more adaptable and more likely to get along with other races.
I think if gold elves were capable of wielding moonblades, we would have seen it by now. Especially in the very first drawing of the blades, when the blades were easier to be worthy of.
The purpose of the Moonblades was indeed to select a good/worthy/noble ruler of Evermeet. The purpose of Evermeet was to provide a retreat for all elves. Since the ruler of Evermeet would have to reign over a large segment of sun elves; it seems highly unlikely to me that sun elves would be excluded from the selection process. Thus I would say the reasons pure-blooded sun elves have failed to claim a blade are personal character flaws.
As a disclaimer let me say I've never read the novels that talk about Moonblades. If there is something in those that states moon elves were favored or sun elves were barred please let me know.
BTW I hope you're enjoying the discussion as much as I.
Sun elves were allowed to try. Every one that tried, died. And that was before the blades had ever been wielded -- as they gain more and more powers, it becomes more difficult to be worthy of them. So it they weren't worthy when each blade was a blank slate, it's really unlikely that they'll be worthy further down the line.
Any ruler of Evermeet would have to rule over a number of elves of a different elven subrace. Which would make the better ruler -- one who would try to work with those other subraces, or ones that would proclaim that it's only natural for lesser races to be ruled by them?
Gold elves were never explicitly ruled out, but even the guy who created the blades recommended that only moon elves try to draw the blades. And in the book, knowing that they were likely to die because of this, there were still gold elves tripping all over themselves to try drawing a moonblade.
So we have them called moonblades, we have their creator saying he didn't think gold elves could handle them, and we have no gold elf wielders, despite dozens of attempts on day one. Sounds pretty definitive to me.
Also note that sea elves, dark elves, and green elves were also excluded. Ditto lythari and avariel, and even star elves, if you want to include them. Yet I've never heard any complaints about them being left out... |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 06 Sep 2010 00:33:01 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2010 : 00:54:22
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To be honest, I don't know of any besides the wood elves who even TRIED. As to the attempts at the beginning, I'd say it had more to do with the fact that all the gold elf families that tried were in it only for the chance to become the ruler, not that they had any concern for the best interests of the elven people. Many tried and failed, yes, but the same thing happened with a lot of the moon elves who tried, too. Some families lost ALL their heirs in the attempt, and that's not just the gold elves. It may be that the moon elves ARE more adaptable and understanding, but there have been plenty of gold elves who are just as much so. Coronal Eltargrim of Cormanthor was one, and honestly, I can't think of any elf who would have had a better chance of wielding one! The fact that so few blade are left active, is really what would make it harder at this point- not that the gold elves aren't worthy by blood.
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The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
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Ionik Knight
Learned Scribe
USA
222 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2010 : 01:08:30
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I do see what you are saying Wooly. But just because those sun elves did not have the right stuff, does not mean that it is impossible for there to be a sun elf with all the qualities the Moonblades are looking for. Unless they were programmed at creation to exclude sun elves. Thus , in my campaign, a sun elf could one day come to wield a Moonblade. This would only be a hypothetical situation though as I do not intend to put a Moonblade in play for anyone: PC, NPC, moon elf, sun elf or anyone else.
The only way I would change my mind is a canon source saying the Moonblades were created to only accept moon elves, or a canon source to state that sun elves are genetically incapable of being racially tolerant/accepting enough to qualify as a ruler of Evermeet.
All that said, I have no problem with others adjudicating the question differently.
On a slightly different note, what pc in their right mind wants to be bonded for life to a weapon that eliminates the possibility of being raised or resurrected? After all as soon as they die part of their soul gets sucked in to power the thing. |
Fools to right of them,
Jesters to left of them,
Clowns in front of them
Pun'd and parody'd. |
Edited by - Ionik Knight on 07 Sep 2010 05:26:16 |
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Ionik Knight
Learned Scribe
USA
222 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2010 : 01:22:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
The fact that so few blade are left active, is really what would make it harder at this point- not that the gold elves aren't worthy by blood.
There were not a great many of them made to begin with, but any that were not out and out destroyed can still be claimed even if they were never claimed or their family died out. As per Magic of Faerun the only requirements (game mechanics wise) for a claimant to be excepted are: elf or half-elf, matching good (usually neutral-good) alignment, the ceremony must meet certain requirements (suggestions are in a royal throne room or place sacred to an elven deity),and DM's discretion.
It does also say that claimants who have cowardly or selfish acts must have atoned for those actions in some way.
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Fools to right of them,
Jesters to left of them,
Clowns in front of them
Pun'd and parody'd. |
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HelldoG
Learned Scribe
101 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2010 : 01:49:18
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BTW. Are the Moonblades (or at least one of them) stated somewhere? And if not, what mechanics and what kind of powers could they follow/have? Something like Legacy Weapons?
All that debating about the Blades made my curious. :P |
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Edited by - HelldoG on 06 Sep 2010 01:50:08 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2010 : 02:34:49
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quote:
Originally posted by HelldoG
BTW. Are the Moonblades (or at least one of them) stated somewhere? And if not, what mechanics and what kind of powers could they follow/have? Something like Legacy Weapons?
All that debating about the Blades made my curious. :P
You can find the 3e interpretation in Magic of Faerūn.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2010 : 02:43:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Ionik Knight
I do see what you are saying Wooly. But just because those sun elves did not have the right stuff, does not mean that it is impossible for there to be a sun elf with all the qualities the Moonblades are looking for. Unless they were programmed at creation to exclude sun elves. Thus , in my campaign, a sun elf could one day come to wield a Moonblade. This would only be a hypothetical situation though as I do not intend to put a Moonblade in play for anyone: PC, NPC, moon elf, sun elf or anyone else.
The only way I would change my mind is a canon source saying the Moonblades were created to only except moon elves, or a canon source to state that sun elves are genetically incapable of being racially tolerant/accepting enough to qualify as a ruler of Evermeet.
All that said, I have no problem with others adjudicating the question differently.
There's a simple *fix* for this. Simply suggest that your character is a distant relative of mixed gold and moon elven blood who then came into possession of the sword. The moonblade didn't have any particular problem with this, so it eventually allowed itself to be wielded by gold elves that it felt were worthy of the blade. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Fey'ri count as elves, right?
