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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4598 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2010 :  16:30:41  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
No no, it's nothing against marriage as an institution--rather, it's talking about how marriage often dooms characters who get married in a novel.

This is equal parts regarding FR novels and, to an extent, all fantasy novels (and other literature) in general.

It comes from something rather astute Lady Fellshot said in the Gauntlgrym novel thread, in which she was addressing a point about a certain character's seeming irrelevance after she got married (not being more specific, as that opens the SPOILERS door).

The quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot

Didn't you get the memo? Female characters in fantasy aren't narratively important after they get married.
The point is a good one, though I think there are a good number of exceptions. I'm thinking, in particular, of Catelyn Stark in Song of Ice and Fire, or Queen Ysandre in the Kusheline series, etc., list goes on--powerful married females who lose none of their usefulness or "narrative importance" based on the fact they are *married*.

On the other hand, the point is totally valid: most "just married" characters completely fade from importance. Why is that?

From a writing standpoint, I think marriage is sort of an "end-state" in a fantasy novel: once you go there, you fundamentally alter the role of the character (who was, up until then, a romantic interest/quarry, and is now something *caught* in a sense), and I don't think many characters (male or female) can necessarily survive that sort of complete and total revision.

(I also posted more on my blog about this, but it's basically an essay, so I didn't want to clog everything here: http://eriksdb.livejournal.com/263370.html)

What say you, astute scribes?

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"

Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 30 Jul 2010 17:22:42

The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3563 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2010 :  16:39:52  Show Profile Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

No no, it's nothing against marriage as an institution--rather, it's talking about how marriage often dooms characters who get married in a novel.

This is equal parts regarding FR novels and, to an extent, all fantasy novels (and other literature) in general.

It comes from something rather astute Lady Fellshot said in the Gauntlgrym novel thread, in which she was addressing a point about a certain character's seeming irrelevance after she got married (not being more specific, as that opens the SPOILERS door).

The quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot

Didn't you get the memo? Female characters in fantasy aren't narratively important after they get married.
The point is a good one, though I think there are a good number of exceptions. I'm thinking, in particular, of Catelyn Stark in Song of Ice and Fire, or Queen Ysandre in the Kusheline series, etc., list goes on--powerful married females who lose none of their usefulness or "narrative importance" based on the fact they are *married*.

On the other hand, the point is totally valid: most "just married" characters completely fade from importance. Why is that?

From a writing standpoint, I think marriage is sort of an "end-state" in a fantasy novel: once you go there, you fundamentally alter the role of the character (who was, up until then, a romantic interest/quarry, and is now something *caught* in a sense), and I don't think many characters (male or female) can necessarily survive that sort of complete and total revision.

(I also posted more on my blog about this, but it's basically an essay, so I didn't want to clog everything here: http://eriksdb.livejournal.com/263370.html)

What say you, astute scribes?

Cheers



I feel sorry for anyone (writer or reader) who sees marriage as a goal or ending.

For me and my wife it was just the begining. The place where the story really got interesting.


For the example Lady Fellshot commented on, this was especially frustrating. Why put so much effort into growing Cattie beyond a pretty gilr who talked and acted like a dwarf, into a multi faceted, interesting character just to marry her off to literally wither away? There was so much left undone. The arguements about children or not. Who stays home with them and who adventures etc, etc..

I find it frustrating most authors use marraige and or having kids(or hell just being in love) as a crutch to remove a character. They should be used to further develop that character!

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore

Poland
1190 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2010 :  16:46:34  Show Profile  Visit Zireael's Homepage Send Zireael a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I read the essay.
Well, to be frank, I don't get it. If the novel is not of the romance type, it should not matter. You can get married (often during your adventures) and still adventure... and still be an interesting character in adventure/fantasy novel.

Examples (maybe not novels, but... still in the fantasy genre)
Kivan & Deheriana
Khalid & Jaheira (though it's hard to learn anything much about their past)
Anomen & the PC
Ajantis & the PC in the Ajantis BGII mod

SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!

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Hawkins
Great Reader

USA
2131 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2010 :  17:04:59  Show Profile  Visit Hawkins's Homepage Send Hawkins a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't think that it has to be a form of doom, I just think that unfortunately the writer (or editor, or story manager) makes it so. I actually would have liked to see said female character more active after her marriage. Especially since the current relationship and marriage was supposed to be contrasted against her previous engagement to another man who was too over-protective and stifling.

Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)

One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass

"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane

* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
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* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
729 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2010 :  17:05:19  Show Profile Send Thauramarth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, Forgotten Realms has a couple of notable exceptions, at least: Shandril Shessair. Robyn Kendrick. Myrmeen Lhal (okay, she's a widow).
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4598 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2010 :  17:20:01  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

I feel sorry for anyone (writer or reader) who sees marriage as a goal or ending.
For me and my wife it was just the begining. The place where the story really got interesting.
Well, I for one am glad you feel that way--and that's more or less how I feel as well in my own life/marriage. What I'm remarking on is the tendency of fantasy (and all writing in general) to fall neatly into the "we're tense and romantic and then we get married the end" sort of mold.

quote:
I find it frustrating most authors use marraige and or having kids(or hell just being in love) as a crutch to remove a character. They should be used to further develop that character!
I definitely agree!

The thing is, part of the reason I think we read literature in general and fantasy in specific is to see the way relationships play out, and most of the time, that means constructing a relationship. If "happily ever after" is the goal, that makes marriage a natural marker for "then they lived happily ever after." If used at the end of a book, it provides a certain amount of closure that I at least, as a reader, like to have.

That said, I think it's a lazy cop-out to have marriage be an "end-state," and I think characters who get married in the course of a story can and should continue being just as cool--with the acknowledgment that they've just gone through a major life change and should deal with it.

Re: the specific case, I have not (yet) read the Ghost King and cannot really comment on that particular issue, so I won't!

quote:
Originally posted by Zireael

I read the essay.
Well, to be frank, I don't get it.
Well, to explain, I want to be clear that I'm talking about a particular trend in fantasy as informed by a certain conception in society, i.e., we look at marriage a certain way in the real world (as an "end" rather than a "means"), so when we *write* about marriage, it reflects that. As evidenced by 90% of all literature up to and including the present age.

That's basically what I'm saying, in a nutshell.

EDIT: Also, what Ashe summarizes below: that if the reader *wants* these characters to get together (i.e., it's a subplot of the story) then when the characters get together, it is an *end* to that subplot, and you have to fill the void that it leaves with something equally compelling.

What I am *not* saying is that it *has to be* that way or even *should be* that way. I personally think characters can be just as rich and interesting and exciting after they get married as before--but I also wanted to incline my head toward the necessity of accepting that a major change has happened with the character, and you can't just do business as usual. Marriage is a pretty serious life change for most people.

I just want to make it clear that I'm not presenting myself as someone who *supports* the notion that marriage is a handy character-killer--only that I see a tendency in fiction to use it that way, and I wanted to see if other people saw that as well.

quote:
If the novel is not of the romance type, it should not matter. You can get married (often during your adventures) and still adventure... and still be an interesting character in adventure/fantasy novel.
Well sure, I certainly agree that it *shouldn't* matter, but all too often it *DOES*, and that's what I'm talking about.

(And romance isn't limited to the romance genre: I firmly believe that love and desire are so firmly part of the human psyche that any book that doesn't at least acknowledge those forces is a huge shark-jumper.)

In my writing experience, I've never actually had characters go from single to married in one of my pieces. They've always either been single (usually) or already married or in a long term committed relationship that is *like* a marriage (in a couple of instances).

On the few occasions I've used married characters, I certainly don't let it be a "happily ever after or at least just disappear" state of affairs.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"

Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 30 Jul 2010 17:39:29
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3240 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2010 :  17:21:37  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I completely understand where Erik's coming from.

Yes, in the real world, marriage is not the ending and yes, in fiction, you can still have adventures and stories afterwards.

But, when writing a story, be it romance, sci-fi, murder mystery or fantasy; if a sub-plot of the story is 'these two get together', then when that happens, the story's pretty much done.

A prime example is all over TV. You have two types of relationship plots. On one hand, the couple is already together and the story is about how they work together/interact with each other (Hart to Hart, just about every family sitcom ever made). The other side are the stories where you see where two people are coming together. It's obvious to everyone that they should be together, yet something stands in the way (Sam/Diane on Cheers, David/Maddie on Moonlighting, Bones/Boothe on Bones, Ross/Rachel on Friends, etc, etc). The richness of the story is about how they grow closer to the goal. But once they reach that goal, the story's over. From the previous examples, after Sam/Diane got together, they ran out of stories, so they dumped Diane. Dave/Maddie? Tanked the entire show (which turned out good for Bruce Willis, but not so good for Cybill Sheppard). Ross/Rachel? Yeah, they broke them up so many times to hit the reset button.

It's a hard truth. Anytime your story has an element of sexual tension between characters, if you resolve that tension, you lose the people that were watching it. Which is why EVERY crime-solving show out there that pairs up a guy and gal as partners with tension won't let them 'take the next step', because every TV executive remembers what happened to Moonlighting. It's a basic truth of most fiction: you can have your character grow and mature, fall in love and pursue that love, but ultimately, they have to remain in the same relationship status until the story is complete.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4598 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2010 :  17:22:27  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM

Especially since the current relationship and marriage was supposed to be contrasted against her previous engagement to another man who was too over-protective and stifling.

In re: the specific case, that's a great point. At the beginning of Pirate King (which I *have* read), the two of them seem much more equitable and cool. I read that and thought, "well, maybe everything will be all right."

Sorry to hear that folks don't like the direction it takes.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
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Hawkins
Great Reader

USA
2131 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2010 :  17:50:11  Show Profile  Visit Hawkins's Homepage Send Hawkins a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't agree with you Ashe (on the TV shows). I think that many of them make the same mistake that was brought up about fantasy novels here. Take Chuck for example. SPOILERS FOR CHUCK SEASON 3 AHEAD:






When Sarah and Chuck finally get together, the story doesn't end there. And that is what I wanted. I (and I think others) want to see the couple get together, and then see the story continue. And I think too many writers of all walks of life just see dating/living together/marriage as the finish line instead of the milestone it should be. The race isn't finished, and the fans don't want it to be.

A Note to Erik: Yeah, I still need to read The Ghost King too.

Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)

One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass

"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane

* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives

My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4598 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2010 :  17:54:27  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As I basically noted above, I think there is a *tendency* to cop out and let marriage/consummation be an ending, rather than a milestone. It doesn't necessarily have to be that way, but since you're basically completing an entire subplot for the characters, you need to have it flow into something else--something to keep everything going.

It's sort of like marriage in the real world: once the early fire gets resolved, you need to keep stoking it with other things.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
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Faraer
Great Reader

3308 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2010 :  18:21:46  Show Profile  Visit Faraer's Homepage Send Faraer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Super-quick reply: Marriage marks the shift from youth to adult, the end of 'maiden' valence, the conclusion of comedies. Fixation on the mode of youth -- in heroic fantasy sometimes inflected as 'No more adventuring for you, time to settle down' -- is a form of infantilism. Luckily,
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth

Well, Forgotten Realms has a couple of notable exceptions, at least: Shandril Shessair. Robyn Kendrick. Myrmeen Lhal (okay, she's a widow).

Florin and Dove, Jhessail and Merith, Mirt and Asper!
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3240 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2010 :  18:26:38  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not saying I agree with the situation. I'd love to see stories continue on after a relationship change.

However, *most* of the viewing/reading public do NOT want to see that. And you can't argue with numbers. If TV shows lose viewers, advertisers drop, money disappears and they can't afford to make the show anymore. In the case of novels, there's a reason a lot of trilogies and series start with a single book that ends in such a way that it can be a standalone book. One of the biggest disappoints can be ending a book with "To Be Continued" but the sales don't support a sequel. (And, as a life-long member of Team Banzai, I can tell you that pain never goes away.)

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3750 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2010 :  18:28:50  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree. Personally, I hate it when a show or story dies out after two people get together. life does not end after marriage, dispite what many people seem to think. (Just think about that common joke about being married being equal to being dead.) I was sorely disappointed about how that particular story played out after the characters mentioned were married. I would have loved to see some sort of relationship after that, and the kids issue, even though that was pretty much settled in a rather disappointing way. (WotC: No, you can't have kids because you broke your hip or some stupid thing and now you're simply unable... And yes, we know there are healers who could fix that, but we're not going to let them, because then we'd have to deal with the issue of half-breed kids, and we don't want that.)

As a writer (unpublished, but hoping to change that) I dispise using it as a simple end-point, and I have no problem with continuing the story beyond that point. However, I think that too many people are enmeshed in the fairy-tale "happily ever after" mindset, which is fostered on us all as kids by (ahem, thank you, Disney) movies, books, and even TV shows, as Ashe said. Which is kind of silly, when you think about it. My life changed drastically after I got married, though to be honest, it really changed when my hubby and I got together. If the getting together is all you want to convey, then it's fine, but why do it that way if there's still more to tell? And why simply have a character disappear or become unimportant afterwards? Maybe it shows that the character has stopped growing, but if so, then it's really a shame, because it just means that the writer could not figure out anything else to do with them. I like to think that I've got more imagination then that, myself....

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3240 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2010 :  18:39:23  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer

Super-quick reply: Marriage marks the shift from youth to adult, the end of 'maiden' valence, the conclusion of comedies. Fixation on the mode of youth -- in heroic fantasy sometimes inflected as 'No more adventuring for you, time to settle down' -- is a form of infantilism. Luckily,
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth

Well, Forgotten Realms has a couple of notable exceptions, at least: Shandril Shessair. Robyn Kendrick. Myrmeen Lhal (okay, she's a widow).

Florin and Dove, Jhessail and Merith, Mirt and Asper!



Yes, their relationship evolved. Now let's take a look:

Sandril - dead
Robyn - After marrying Tristan, the story shifts focus to their daughter.
Florin & Dove - Stories written about Florin are set after him and Dove are together, or before they started adventuring together (Ed's Knights series). So far, their story hasn't been set to scroll, but is common knowledge (much like Khelben/Laeral).
The same is true of Jhessail/Merith and Mirt/Asper. Yes, we know their stories, but they were not novelized and sold on a bookshelf.

The point I'm trying to make is that we appreciate these stories and the characters in them. However, the general public has an outlook that when the hero/heroine get together, the story's done. I think that's a huge misconception, but changing that misconception is as hard as preventing the guys behind the "Not Another ______ Movie" films from making horrid parodies. As long as they make money, new movies will be ordered up.

Heck, around the `Keep, I feel that the average scribe is more akin to buy the 'other' stories, where characters change, age, falls in love, falls out of love, lives and dies. But the average consumer does not buy into that. Many of the 'old' stories are like this. King Arthur, Beowulf, Robin Hood, Ulysses, Sinbad. The stories of these heroes span decades and show how they grew and changed in that time. But take a look at what Hollywood does to these stories, shortening them up so that the characters remain relatively unchanged throughout the movie.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3240 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2010 :  18:43:26  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

<snip>However, I think that too many people are enmeshed in the fairy-tale "happily ever after" mindset, which is fostered on us all as kids by (ahem, thank you, Disney) movies, books, and even TV shows, as Ashe said. <snip>


I personally believe that THIS is the #1 cause of divorce nowadays. People get married, expecting it to be like a retirement where problems and stuff no longer need to be considered. Then when something DOES happen, they don't know how to deal with it and think that they were mistaken about their partner and their true Prince/Princess is still out there, elsewhere.

(Okay, that's just a bit of my personal experience, but still it applies)

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4598 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2010 :  19:34:54  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would like someone to pull up an example of heroes for whom romance is a significant subplot, they get married (by default, resolving that subplot), and continue to be compelling thereafter as main, central characters of the story. So we can talk about how that was handled and why it worked.

Hey?

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore

USA
1714 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2010 :  19:45:46  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
One TV show takes this sad notion to an even greater extreme. The Batchelor/Batchelorette features the star dating multiple people over the course of a few months, right up until the very last episode, where all of a sudden three people are dwindled down to two and a proposal is expected to take place.

They don't even make it to a wedding--just a proposal--and the show is brought to a close!

All too much entertainment (of any genre) focuses on the build-up of a relationship and then short-changes the audience on what-comes-after. Look at most romantic comedies and see how they end: with the bickering fools finally realizing that they're better off together. Um, OK. But what happens next?!

Oh well, I suppose it could be worse. Porn just rushes through the build-up and skips straight to the bedsheets. They don't even bother with a proposal--much less a wedding or the trials of marriage.

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)

<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">
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Hawkins
Great Reader

USA
2131 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2010 :  19:57:50  Show Profile  Visit Hawkins's Homepage Send Hawkins a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

I would like someone to pull up an example of heroes for whom romance is a significant subplot, they get married (by default, resolving that subplot), and continue to be compelling thereafter as main, central characters of the story. So we can talk about how that was handled and why it worked.

Hey?

Cheers
Does my example of Chuck not fit the bill? or is this just for Realms/fantasy characters?

Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)

One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass

"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane

* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives

My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3240 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2010 :  20:01:39  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

I would like someone to pull up an example of heroes for whom romance is a significant subplot, they get married (by default, resolving that subplot), and continue to be compelling thereafter as main, central characters of the story. So we can talk about how that was handled and why it worked.

Hey?

Cheers

The Classics: Arthur & Guinevere, Robin & Marion, Sinbad & his wife.

Of the modern age? Anne McCaffrey's Dragonriders; Melanie Rawn's Dragon Prince/Dragon Star heroes; Jordan's Wheel of Time.

And with Rawn's books, the story shifts to the heroes' children in the second trilogy. McCaffrey and Jordan are two notable exceptions because they are epic tales detailing a world and not just focused on single individuals.

In fact, I'll add that as a caveat to my previous discussion. The only time you REALLY see character continue through relationships and such is when they are the 'real' focus of the story. In McCaffrey and Jordan, they both have dozens of characters that may be the focus at any one time.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3240 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2010 :  20:03:29  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM

quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

I would like someone to pull up an example of heroes for whom romance is a significant subplot, they get married (by default, resolving that subplot), and continue to be compelling thereafter as main, central characters of the story. So we can talk about how that was handled and why it worked.

Hey?

Cheers
Does my example of Chuck not fit the bill? or is this just for Realms/fantasy characters?

I don't want to include Chuck in the list just yet. If history proves true, you'll see a big drop in viewer turnout next season as they are together which will result in either a) cancellation or b) breaking up Chuck & Sarah.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3750 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2010 :  20:11:54  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
BEAST, I don't think porn really fits in the same discussion- it's a whole issue of its own. Most porn movies are relatively lacking in plot to begin with- it's just used as an excuse to get the characters into bed together. Marriage is completely different. As for shows like The Batchelor, etc, that's just "reality", which does not have a story either.

I think that it's the biuld-up that most people want to see. That will they- won't they friction that makes people want to root for love to win out in the end. But once it does, most people quickly get bored or are satisfied enough to change the channel or pick up a different book. It's just human nature to want resolution/closure. And today's media emphasizes this. That's why so many shows now simply drag out the relationship for X number of seasons, just so they can keep up ratings. But when the viewers finally get tired of that, then they kill the show by having the leads get hitched- because they know it's over. It's a sad fact of life, but people today equate marriage with that "life is good, let's just kick back and close the door on the story" mentality.

Erik, I wish I could think of a married couple who continued in like manner, but sadly, the only good ones I can name are Reed and Sue of FF fame. I would have added Peter and M-J to that, but sadly, Joe Quesada nixed that one a couple of years ago with his (IMO) hidiously botched and utterly unnecessary "unmarriage" of those two. Most of the stories post BND could just as easily have been told with them still happily wed, but he seemed to tap into that mindset of married = boring. as to FR couples, I really can't think of any except Khelban and Laeral, and that ended with his death, unfortunately.

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"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4598 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2010 :  20:30:18  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I meant Realms characters with my last question. Sorry for being unclear!

I can't off the top of my head think of any characters (other than D&C) we met as *single*, then *married/committed relationship*, then kept reading about them.

Maybe we can pull down a list of realms characters who have that romantic tension as a subplot, then end up together, then we can talk about what happens to them?

Cheers


P.S. While I myself kinda liked it, the Brand New Day anology fits perfectly into this discussion, as an example of wanting to run the character with romantic tension in the old "pre-marriage" way. Also, Daredevil and his steady stream of "refrigerator wives" (if you get my implication) fit this also. Tension, consummation, death, reset to tension, rinse, repeat.

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4598 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2010 :  20:32:29  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also note: Generally speaking, porn has nothing to do with romantic tension and is really a whole 'nother discussion.

One that tends to get sealed pretty fast when we start it, eh mods?

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3750 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2010 :  20:50:59  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
*blinks innocently* I don't know what you're talking about, sir! But yeah, i get your drift about DD's many wives. I've always wished he would just find a nice stable girl he can come home to and toss the stick aside for a bit. I mean, really- don't most lawyers have some sort of "trophy-wife" to schmaltz around town with? He should, lol! (kidding.) I kind of got disgusted with the re-boot on Spidey, simply because it just made him seem so lame afterwards, living with his Aunt again at age 30-something, no relationship, acting like he was still in high school/college and had no worries (read- responsibilities). It turned him into a total loser yutz, rather than restore the "swinging single loveable dork" of years agone. Pathetic. Some of the stories were good, I admit, but as a character, I had lost a lot of respect for him. And the new villains? Mostly, yick!! (Freak was just dumb, andPaper Doll was just too sad for words....)

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4598 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2010 :  21:08:38  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Off topic to answer AI's question: "woman in a refrigerator" syndrome refers to female characters whose entire purpose for existence is to affect corresponding male characters (usually enrich a backstory or provide motivation) by their (often horrific) deaths. Named after a Green Lantern comic in which the hero's girlfriend was, indeed, murdered and stuffed in GL's refrigerator as a grisly surprise.

Talks about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Refrigerators

And personally I was always partial to Black Widow as a romantic foil for Daredevil, but she was smart enough to get out of town before the murderous editorial pen could get a lock on her.

Cheers!

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"

Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 30 Jul 2010 21:09:45
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skychrome
Senior Scribe

713 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2010 :  21:15:29  Show Profile  Visit skychrome's Homepage Send skychrome a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Erik, my five cents on the topic:

I think the becoming irrelevant due to marriage is simply a migration from real world to fantasy settings. Marriage being the end sounds negative but in real life it isnt't. As Faeraer pointed out, it just means a shift in priorities and maturity and I perceive it as positive in real life, but it does not really thrill me in fantasy novels.

Let's take for example your two characters from DoM: the elf priestess and her... hm.. sick husband or fiancee (who dies first I think), do not remember the names. The pure fact of them being a couple instead of single characters made them less interesting for me. Not because of lack of new romance plots (although you could not resist to...er...give her some action with Fox), but because couples and especially the married ones tend to behave more responsible because they have to find a more common denominator for two people now instead of just themselves. Now running around with a broadsword and being permanently in danger of running into a red dragon does not really comply with "responsible behaviour", thus marriages of adventurers tend to be less credible unless you manage to disconnect your real world perceptions from them.

I prefer single characters who are more credible in doing irresponsible or unpredictive things.
If you belong to people however who find it credible that female characters in D&D can also have strength 23 and wrestle down an ogre, then I do not see the dificulty of having an interesting couple of married adventurers doing relevant stuff in a novel.

It is just a matter of reader's perceptions/ability of disassociation if it works or not. I do not see that there is a common method how to resolve this "problem".

"You make an intriguing offer, one that is very tempting. It would seem that I have little alternative than to answer thusly: DISINTEGRATE!" Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick 625
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4598 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2010 :  21:38:05  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good example, SC. (I'm totally not biased or anything!)

quote:
Originally posted by skychrome

(although you could not resist to...er...give her some action with Fox)
Oh I certainly "could" have resisted--I just chose not to.

And it wasn't for the sake of titillation either--I was trying to get across a real emotion in that scene. Friends do kiss friends, after all--at least, in the FR they do.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2010 :  22:15:16  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

I mean, really- don't most lawyers have some sort of "trophy-wife" to schmaltz around town with?

While I understand the perception that might lead to this view being prevalent*, what lawyers, particularly the most successful, seem in the main to have, in my experience, is ex-wives.

Their non-superpowered and non-combative jobs are stressful enough so that few relationships endure the long hours, preoccupied demeanour at home and career-orientated priorities.

I imagine that being both handicapped and the frequent target of murderous psychopath could only compound this problem in the case of Daredevil.

This also has applications in the realm of Realms fiction (see what I did there?). It is likely that most relationships eventually end, particularly ones contracted in haste and excitement, so married characters need not necessary mean an end to conflict or drama.

I'll be the last to praise the series The Last Mythal, but among the few touches of versimilitude in that was the engaged couple who found they had grown apart. Always good to see an alternative to the trite and saccharine cycle of 'boy-meets-girl, will-they-won't-they, something-comes-between-them, problem-solved-by-True-Love and Happily-Ever-After'.

*Indeed, my father's wife could fit the image some people have of a 'trophy wife', seeing as she is younger than him and does not work, spending her time mainly on lunches, shopping, yoga, housekeeping (not housework, mind you, that's what nannies and cleaners are for) and volunteering for her preferred political party. It doesn't make her less of a person, though, given that pursuing a socially accepted Career is not an accurate meter for personal worth.

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skychrome
Senior Scribe

713 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2010 :  22:31:48  Show Profile  Visit skychrome's Homepage Send skychrome a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
[And it wasn't for the sake of titillation either--I was trying to get across a real emotion in that scene. Friends do kiss friends, after all--at least, in the FR they do.


Oh don't worry, although I do not really fancy romance stuff in novels, this was actually quite a good scene that had nothing cheap about it.

"You make an intriguing offer, one that is very tempting. It would seem that I have little alternative than to answer thusly: DISINTEGRATE!" Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick 625
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khorne
Master of Realmslore

Finland
1073 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2010 :  13:14:47  Show Profile  Visit khorne's Homepage Send khorne a Private Message  Reply with Quote

quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

I would like someone to pull up an example of heroes for whom romance is a significant subplot, they get married (by default, resolving that subplot), and continue to be compelling thereafter as main, central characters of the story. So we can talk about how that was handled and why it worked.

Hey?

Cheers


Easy. Honor Harrington from David Weber's Honor Harrington novels. Married, got a kid, and still going strong.

If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy

Edited by - khorne on 31 Jul 2010 13:15:21
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore

USA
1714 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2010 :  17:57:47  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

Also note: Generally speaking, porn has nothing to do with romantic tension and is really a whole 'nother discussion.

Well, that was kinda exactly my point, E. It is an extreme example of the prevailing unwillingness to depict a fuller, prolonged development of relationships, which is what I thought you were talking about, here. Various "artists" choose to zero in on certain specific, narrowly defined aspects of romantic relationships, instead of exploring them in greater depth and duration. And that leaves most of us wanting more.

quote:
One that tends to get sealed pretty fast when we start it, eh mods?

ĦAy, caramba!

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)

<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">
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