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woodwwad
Learned Scribe
USA
267 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Jan 2010 : 01:04:19
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what races, besides the base races mentioned in the FR core book, do you think are suitable for player characters in a FR game?
When I run a game, I don't mind having one odd ball type character in the group. I think that can add a lot to the game and there is a lot of realms lore containing adventurers of nonstandard races. I think more than one weird pc in a group can be highly problematic and that you should usually have at least 1 human pc. Below is a list of races I think are suitable for PCs, please feel free to comment on that &/or add your own races to the list.
Saurials (sp? )
Bugbear
Centaur
Githzerai
Goblin
Hobgoblin
Kobold
Lizardman
Minotaur
Ogre
Orc
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Stout Heart
Learned Scribe
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2010 : 01:54:09
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| I'd kill 9 of the races on that list on site no questions asked. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4427 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2010 : 04:04:21
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Level adjustments aside (something I really despise) I can think of many races I'd allow in my campaigns. This is also not mentioning Tieflings/Aasimars which I believe are fully developed and acceptable PC races. Here's a few:
Drow (lots of role-playing opportunities there, but no Drizzt clones)
Orc
Minotaur
Centaur
Duergar
Half Giant
Goliath
Gnoll
Goblin
Hobgoblin
Lizardfolk
Lycanthrope
Shadar-Kai
Vampire
Now that is a very extensive list that takes mostly from only the Monster Manual. I've also been persuaded to allow Dopplegangers, Half-celestials, and Half-dragons too. It's my belief that if you have an intriguing backstory, history, and character niche you should be able to express that and to have fun. But when my players play a monster race, I let them know that not all the people in the world are as open minded and you will probably be shot on sight many times. I find DMs who put rstrictions on the game based solely on keeping the "norm" absurd. We're here to play a game, have fun, and take part in a story which my vison/creation (character) has a chance to partake in. So as long as my players keep to some sense of balance (ie, not wanting to play a Tarrasque for example) I'll keep an open mind about an unusual character or race. |
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woodwwad
Learned Scribe
USA
267 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2010 : 05:02:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Level adjustments aside (something I really despise) I can think of many races I'd allow in my campaigns. This is also not mentioning Tieflings/Aasimars which I believe are fully developed and acceptable PC races. Here's a few:
Drow (lots of role-playing opportunities there, but no Drizzt clones)
Orc
Minotaur
Centaur
Duergar
Half Giant
Goliath
Gnoll
Goblin
Hobgoblin
Lizardfolk
Lycanthrope
Shadar-Kai
Vampire
Now that is a very extensive list that takes mostly from only the Monster Manual. I've also been persuaded to allow Dopplegangers, Half-celestials, and Half-dragons too. It's my belief that if you have an intriguing backstory, history, and character niche you should be able to express that and to have fun. But when my players play a monster race, I let them know that not all the people in the world are as open minded and you will probably be shot on sight many times. I find DMs who put rstrictions on the game based solely on keeping the "norm" absurd. We're here to play a game, have fun, and take part in a story which my vison/creation (character) has a chance to partake in. So as long as my players keep to some sense of balance (ie, not wanting to play a Tarrasque for example) I'll keep an open mind about an unusual character or race.
I agree with you on that, I'm all for putting to use to make the game more fun and getting rid of the ones that make it less fun. And I agree there are a lot of ideas that could be come up with for many races. Of course, I only let people that are quality rpers and that I know play anything that isn't standard. The only race on your list I would disagree with is Vampire, they don't work well in the D&D game. First they cannot go out in the daylight, which leaves the player sitting there for huge amounts of time. Vampires only work in all vampire games. Vampire the Masqueraid is another game I play and ST, really like the game but even in WOD Vampires only work in Vampire games because of the sleeping all day. Of course you could do an all vampire D&D game but why not just play Vampire then. I had a lycanthrope, werebear pc once in 2nd ed Ravenloft. But I do not like diseased lycanthropes as pcs.
Another race I would like to try to play is a ghoul, one who was a paladin and is trying to be LG but having the cravings for flesh. So much angst and pathos in the character and in heavy armor with a good god's holy symbol the PC could move around a lot easier than one might think.
I think a Half-Celestial or Fiend is okay for a pc but the elc is so high that they turn me off as pcs. I don't like anything more than +2 elc. You just don't end up with enough, skills, BAB, Base saves and most importantly hit points. The characters are too easy to kill and they are so impressive looking that any monster smart or not will go after them first. |
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Zm
Acolyte
United Kingdom
5 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2010 : 15:20:03
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Apart from the obvious reasons, I would not allow non-humanoid, half-intelligent monsters as a playable race due to the fact that 99% of the players would just fail miserably.
It is -to an extent- possible to think, behave and feel like a say, drow for example. Loads of detalied resources to learn about their culture and lifestyles etc. But there is just not enough information on some of the options given in this topic. It can be just me but I expect players to completely transform into their characters, no exceptions.
Of course these are only my thoughts, they can be quite viable in not-RP-focused, powerplaying or casual games. |
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woodwwad
Learned Scribe
USA
267 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2010 : 16:43:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Zm
Apart from the obvious reasons, I would not allow non-humanoid, half-intelligent monsters as a playable race due to the fact that 99% of the players would just fail miserably.
It is -to an extent- possible to think, behave and feel like a say, drow for example. Loads of detalied resources to learn about their culture and lifestyles etc. But there is just not enough information on some of the options given in this topic. It can be just me but I expect players to completely transform into their characters, no exceptions.
Of course these are only my thoughts, they can be quite viable in not-RP-focused, powerplaying or casual games.
I totally agree with you as for transforming into your characters. Make make each of my players create a unique voice for their pc, also all spells must be cast, for example if you cast cure light wounds you have to act it out and explain what you are doing and it must be done the same way everytime. V, S and M must all be worked in. I also use soliloquys in my game, so we hear the inter thoughts of each character. So if you were thinking that my style was any of those, trash game styles, you listed you'd be very wrong. Don't get me wrong, I understand there are a lot of trash games out there and a lot of trash style players that play things you never wish new were allowed in a game and play in such a basic style you wouldn't want to let them handle a human.
However, I'll also disagree with you as there is a lot of published info on many of the races discussed in this topic. Those I listed as player characters:
Bugbear
Centaur
Goblin
Hobgoblin
Kobold
Lizardman
Minotaur
Ogre
Orc
each of the nine above has a Slayer's Guide, published by Mongoose about them. They are 32 page books which do a great job of giving you rp tips, echology, culture, and theme ideas. Most of them are great books. There are also a lot of 2nd party sources detailing goblins, kobolds, minotaurs and orcs. As well as a decent amount of WOTC info on a lot of these races. Also, the TSR book of Humanoids has some helpful info, for 2nd ed.
Saurials (sp? )---there is a web expansion on WOTC to the serpent kingdoms book about them
Githzerai----couldn't find too much on them but enough, I think to give a player some idea of what the culture is. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2010 : 00:11:27
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quote:
Originally posted by woodwwad
Saurials (sp? )---there is a web expansion on WOTC to the serpent kingdoms book about them
Aye. 'Tis here:- http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040717a
quote:
Githzerai----couldn't find too much on them but enough, I think to give a player some idea of what the culture is.
There's not a whole lot of established Realmslore about the Githzerai themselves. In fact, the only githzerai mentioned in a Realms product I can remember, aside from tidbits in the 3e Player's Guide, is Skullport [home to a githerzai exile -- named Grimmbold the Gith].
You could probably see the odd Githzerai anywhere in the Realms, as individual Githzerai could be out performing missions, undergoing vision-quests, on diplomatic delegations to terrestrial monasteries or visiting the courts of various governments, or have other strange business anywhere in the Realms or any other plane.
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2010 : 02:12:14
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I generally don't allow players to play goblinoid races, for the simple reason that many of my games are set in the North, and goblinoids are killed on sight. That, coupled with the extreme rarity of good members of those races (and again, most of my games take a heroic edge) makes them non-starters.
I do, however, think there's enough published lore for most of those listed that someone could actually play one if they wanted. The only ones I'd be a little hesitant about are minotaurs, goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears, since those haven't had nearly as much. The realms doesn't have a version of Krynn's minotaur kingdom, for instance.
That said, I'm generally fairly open in my games. If you can give me a good story, I'll usually let you get away with it. Of course, the stranger or more esoteric the choice, the better the story has to be. I've had, over the years, a very wanderlusting spirit folk from Shou Lung (Oriental Adventures race) and a rhino-person who had been created using the Evolve spell from Kyristan's Mysteries (that one was a collaboration, primarily because the player wanted something big and tough that could bellow "THOK SMASH" at frequent intervals. Still fun, though.) |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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woodwwad
Learned Scribe
USA
267 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2010 : 04:24:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I do, however, think there's enough published lore for most of those listed that someone could actually play one if they wanted. The only ones I'd be a little hesitant about are minotaurs, goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears, since those haven't had nearly as much. The realms doesn't have a version of Krynn's minotaur kingdom, for instance.
I certainly can understand a pc not being a good choice for the area you're running in and that's very important. Are you saying that there isn't enough publish matterial to play minotaurs, goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears? Or just that you wouldn't be too interested in those as pcs?
I think Hobgoblins are better pcs than Half-Orcs. Hobgoblins are smarter and lawful, they are easier in my mind to make pcs than Orcs. Also, I balance the stats out for Hobgoblins and reduce their ecl to +0 so they are a better choice for pcs. I havn't had anyone create one for my FR game but more than one player has mentioned it. I like Hobgoblins a lot, so I portray them in an attractive way where a lot of pcs really end up liking them which in turns puts them on the pc list for several of my players. There is loads of info for them making Hobgoblins players though.
As for Minotaurs, they certainly aren't as well developed in FR as they are in DL but there is a realm for them in the underdark The Labrynth. I'm just now reading the Underdark book, so I don't have the full story there but it does mention in that book they have that realm. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2010 : 06:02:20
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quote:
Originally posted by woodwwad
As for Minotaurs, they certainly aren't as well developed in FR as they are in DL but there is a realm for them in the underdark The Labrynth. I'm just now reading the Underdark book, so I don't have the full story there but it does mention in that book they have that realm.
Also, Brian James established an ancient minotaur kingdom in the Moonsea region in this article: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drrl/20071107a
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Stout Heart
Learned Scribe
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2010 : 06:38:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I generally don't allow players to play goblinoid races, for the simple reason that many of my games are set in the North, and goblinoids are killed on sight. That, coupled with the extreme rarity of good members of those races (and again, most of my games take a heroic edge) makes them non-starters.
I do, however, think there's enough published lore for most of those listed that someone could actually play one if they wanted. The only ones I'd be a little hesitant about are minotaurs, goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears, since those haven't had nearly as much. The realms doesn't have a version of Krynn's minotaur kingdom, for instance.
That said, I'm generally fairly open in my games. If you can give me a good story, I'll usually let you get away with it. Of course, the stranger or more esoteric the choice, the better the story has to be. I've had, over the years, a very wanderlusting spirit folk from Shou Lung (Oriental Adventures race) and a rhino-person who had been created using the Evolve spell from Kyristan's Mysteries (that one was a collaboration, primarily because the player wanted something big and tough that could bellow "THOK SMASH" at frequent intervals. Still fun, though.)
Lol see I wasn't just being Ignorant I got my start in the silver marshes. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2010 : 13:58:27
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I guess I stand corrected a bit on the minotaurs, since there's a little more out there than I thought. But the problem still remains that I just don't have a very good idea of their culture. At least with the others I can sort of get my head into their heads.
This is especially true with hobgoblins, which have always seemed to be the dark-haired step-child of the goblinoid family. They're bigger and tougher, and that's pretty much all we know. They seem to only show up with an author/DM needs a slightly bigger threat than your standard orc.
Hmm. Just thought of something. Wasn't there an old Realms novel that had a bugbear as a supporting character? Maybe Soldier of Ice, from the Harpers line? If I'm not misremembering, then I should probably retract my statement about the bugbears. That would probably give someone enough to form a decent character. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
Edited by - Hoondatha on 22 Jan 2010 14:00:58 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2010 : 14:15:36
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It was a gnoll. Soldiers of Ice is quite a good book, if you are interested in gnomes or gnolls.
As for hobgoblins and other goblinoids, the Elminsters Ecologies box has quite a bit on that subject.
As for my own game, as the Complete book of Humanoids was among my earliest AD&D books, I have always been rather lenient on the subject. But no pixies or fremlins. The race I don't like to see is any form of elf. A several creature that has several hundred years to live and several centuries of memories "hey my dad told me about that" is a nightmare to me where a campaign is concerned. Thankfully I can only remmember one elf being played ever. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2010 : 15:22:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I guess I stand corrected a bit on the minotaurs, since there's a little more out there than I thought. But the problem still remains that I just don't have a very good idea of their culture. At least with the others I can sort of get my head into their heads.
The minotaur race doesn't feature prominently in the Realms. There are of course minotaurs in Faerûn, but they are not a wholly organised people with a land or nation or their own.
We know, from Ed, that -
"Faerunian minotaurs are very rarely seen or mentioned for the same reason psionics was downplayed for so long; they’re considered essential elements of another TSR/now WotC product line (minotaurs meant Dragonlance, psionics meant Dark Sun). So while they’re in the Realms (the ‘home of everything’ for 2nd Edition D&D), we weren’t allowed to feature them in adventures or novels, or make more than passing mention of them."
and,
"Capn Charlie. I like both of your minotaur isle ideas, and yes, I have always included a FEW intelligent, refined minotaurs, though most are brutish, barbarian-level “grunting beasts.” I’ve always treated lizard men the same way; most are tribal warriors with much cunning but not a whole lot of inspirational intellect (i.e. they can learn a new weapon, trap, or battlefield danger in a hurry in a fight with PCs, but don’t lead lives of complex culture), but a few are every bit as intelligent and accomplished as most humans. This usually means that they’re smart enough to keep isolated and largely hidden from humans."
...
That being said, most of the FR-related references to minotaurs in 1e, 2e, and 3e establish that they seem to fill mostly bodyguard or slavery roles. Fahd yn Ralan el Pesarkhal of Calimport is said to be personally guarded by a contingent of 12 minotaurs. Some Red Wizards utilise minotaurs as personal bodyguards as well. Small numbers of minotaurs are seen regularly in many slave pens of the Drow Houses of Menzoberranzan were they sometimes also double as foot soldiers when the drow go to war.
And then of course there is Taurus, the "famous" Hillsfar arena fighter, who has garnered an impressive measure of fame during his time in the arena. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2010 : 01:42:57
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| I tend to discourage demihuman PCs, let alone monster ones. On the other hand, if any player I'd want to DM for really wanted to play pretty much any character type I'd certainly consider it. It's about attitude, not lists: the player who'd want to play a monster for attention-drawing/pure novelty/trouble-making/subtitute-for-creativity reasons wouldn't be in my campaign. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2010 : 03:27:18
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The strangest party I ever played in was a group of four: an elven bladesinger, a half-dragon battlerager (me), a just-that-minute-hatched-none-too-bright silver dragon, and one other, more normal character I can't remember. This was back in 2e, of course, where half-dragon was a race all to itself, not a template, and certainly not suitable for the Complete Book of Dwarves battlerager kit! But it was late at night, we were in college, and it was fun. We completely ignored the "can speak with any and all creatures at birth" part of the dragon write-up and ruled that the hatchling couldn't talk at all. The player spent the entire gaming session making chirping noises and acting out the dragon, which was absolutely hilarious.
It was only that one session, but it just goes to show you that occasionally, in the right circumstances, you can play practically anything. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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woodwwad
Learned Scribe
USA
267 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2010 : 02:39:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I tend to discourage demihuman PCs, let alone monster ones. On the other hand, if any player I'd want to DM for really wanted to play pretty much any character type I'd certainly consider it. It's about attitude, not lists: the player who'd want to play a monster for attention-drawing/pure novelty/trouble-making/subtitute-for-creativity reasons wouldn't be in my campaign.
I think you bring up some good points here. If you are trying to play something odd, just to be odd or are trying to get over as a power gamer, then it is certainly bad. But if it is to explore the psychology, and echology of this different race and to add a unique interesting character to the game then I'm all for it.
With level adjustments there are very few races that are equal to or better than humans, crunch wise, in 3.5 for pcs.
To Hobgoblins, I would totally disagree, there is a load of info presented on them in different D&D books that makes them great for pcs. I would actually argue of any of the 'evil' humanoids that Hobgoblins make the best players. There is some FR info on Hobgoblins in Races of Faerun and there is great 32 page write up in Mongoose's Slayer's Guide to Hobgoblins on them. I personally have created a load of additional echology details for Hobgoblins, my players have really enjoyed the way I've protrayed them. Two of my players are really interested in playing Hobgoblins. |
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Edited by - woodwwad on 24 Jan 2010 02:44:32 |
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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2010 : 03:23:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Hmm. Just thought of something. Wasn't there an old Realms novel that had a bugbear as a supporting character?
Soilder's of Ice had a gnoll (like Jorkens said), but that novel about Zaranda Starr set in Tethyr featured an effeminate Bugbear butler. As well as a promiscuous talking horse and an orog Paladin. I can't say it was a particularly good book, but I actually enjoyed it immensely due to the oddball characters and philosophical/ideological affinity for the Zaranda Starr character.  |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2010 : 04:16:14
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If I was going to play a member of any of the evil races, I'd have to go for a scro. Militaristic, highly intelligent, articulate, and literate orcs -- what's not to love?  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2010 : 04:51:39
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As an aside from the saurials, I've always been keen to play a yuan-ti, though I've never had the opportunity. However, since I mostly DM these days, most of the players at my table can be sure that at least one yuan-ti NPC will be part of their adventures.  |
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woodwwad
Learned Scribe
USA
267 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2010 : 18:38:25
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
As an aside from the saurials, I've always been keen to play a yuan-ti, though I've never had the opportunity. However, since I mostly DM these days, most of the players at my table can be sure that at least one yuan-ti NPC will be part of their adventures.
I really use to dislike that race but then I read the Slayer's Guide to the Yuan-ti and it totally turned me around on the race. I used them a lot in a campaign I ran a few years ago, I gave them a culture that was sort of a combination of China/Aztec/Indian. They were recieved really well and I really am a big fan of the race now.
What would your idea for one as a player character be? |
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Edited by - woodwwad on 24 Jan 2010 18:39:26 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4427 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2010 : 07:21:00
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quote:
Originally posted by woodwwad
I really use to dislike that race but then I read the Slayer's Guide to the Yuan-ti and it totally turned me around on the race. I used them a lot in a campaign I ran a few years ago, I gave them a culture that was sort of a combination of China/Aztec/Indian. They were recieved really well and I really am a big fan of the race now.
What would your idea for one as a player character be?
For me, a Yuan-ti character would probably be a Primal souce character for 4E. I'm thinking either a Shaman or possibly a Druid who summons swarms of snakes or swamp-like creatures. For 3.5E, I'd probably go with Spirit Shaman (even though the class is sub-par on mechanics) or again a Druid. Something about the primal essence of the race draws me to those kinda classes. I could also see a Yuan-ti ranger who uses poisoned arrows or going dervish style with two scimitars for either edition. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2010 : 15:31:43
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quote:
Originally posted by woodwwad
What would your idea for one as a player character be?
Well, I wanted to be a little silly for the next campaign, so I was thinking about generating a yuan-ti NPC villain based around the concept of Serpentor. Basically, a Sseth cult, divorced from the ideological base of the Sacred Way, have spent the last century collecting soul-shards from some of the most capable military-types from across the Realms. Then, attempting to mimic their sarrukh creators, these yuan-ti are intent on artificially creating a biological clone-construct abomination-type that will lead this fragmented cult to greater glory against its enemies, and eventually lay the foundations for a second Mhairshaulk Empire.
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2010 : 07:30:44
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Ansering the original post here, what outside of the core?
Generally speaking I look in Races of Faerun.
Avariels, Volodni, Goliaths, Sharakim, Illumians, Githzerai, and a few others. Generally speaking, I'm working on adding races to the realms in one way or another. Yes, the Realms has a history, so I'm tying it into that history. In my instance, the Bedine, at the time of Karsus' folly were forever changed into the race Sendasti from Mythic Races. Niomus (from the same book) are common in rainier climates, a counterpart to the Avariels of the northern regions.
I'm working out my own idea of what's acceptable in my realms games. I'll probably do my own gazetteer for new players. I think that sort of thing is fun, and it allows me to hide details for myself
Generally, the only thing in 3.5/Pathfinder I don't allow outright is Drow. The closest you get is a 1/2 drow (right now 1/2 drow "Crinti" from Damara are in one of my games. I like that name, it gives the 1/2 drow flavor).
/d |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2010 : 07:50:12
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When you guys use other races in your games do you use level adjustments? So for example when you start a game on Level 6 a PC of a race with an ecl of 1 would start on Level 5?
Because I allways got the feeling that this isn't right, when its ok for the game that the PC is from this race he should get all benefits from it instead of trying to adjust it so everyone is the same.
On the other hand the higher the ecl the greater the unbalance this would cause. What do you think? |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2010 : 13:26:36
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Well, I mostly play 2e, where the idea of level adjustments doesn't exist. Some playable races (ie: drow and duergar) came with a recommended XP penalty, requiring 10% or 20% more XP to level, but I generally haven't found that necessary. Another option is to make a "lesser" version of a race, like the Duergar Exile kit in Demihumans of the Realms, which retains things like immunity to poison and illusions, but takes away the enlargement and invisibility powers. The Complete Book of Humanoids was another great resource, giving stats for thirty or forty different monstrous races. It was great.
3e is so obsessed with balance, I'm not surprised they came up with the LA idea. My problem with it is that it makes anything with an LA *much* less attractive, especially things with +2 or +3 LA. I once played a game where there were five players and I was the only one without an LA. I was a 5th level wizard, and I had the best BAB and was doing by far the most damage. One of the other players was a half-celestial ranger, and he was absolutely useless.
I think a good way to get around it is to use the LA buy-off rules from Unearthed Arcana. Thanks to the way XP is awarded in 3e, a character doing so would fairly quickly earn their way up to par with the rest of the party (especially if they just have +1 LA). Without buy-off, I doubt I'd play an LA race. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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woodwwad
Learned Scribe
USA
267 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2010 : 23:36:24
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
When you guys use other races in your games do you use level adjustments? So for example when you start a game on Level 6 a PC of a race with an ecl of 1 would start on Level 5?
Because I allways got the feeling that this isn't right, when its ok for the game that the PC is from this race he should get all benefits from it instead of trying to adjust it so everyone is the same.
On the other hand the higher the ecl the greater the unbalance this would cause. What do you think?
I use level adjustments. I start every pc at level 1, and if your character has a level adjustment I let you start with all your powers. You do get a bit of a benifit but IMO every ecl race is weaker than human when you factor in the ecl, so I let the player have his or her small advantage at the start. If you pray so deeply to balance that you want to use the completely stupid idea of racial levels then you can do that, but they make absolutely no sense, other than balance. I also like having no more than 1 pc from an elc race. In my current game that is an ecl + 1 Aamamar and in the next game I'm going to run it'll be an ecl + 2 Githzerea. I think anything more than +2 ecl makes for a poor pc, as you have to give up too many levels, so you end up with so fewer class levels than other pcs. Also, I do not like racial hit dice. So I would start any race, I would let someone play, as a first level member of a class to help get the ecl down. Also, I try to balance out any race someone wants to play to make it ecl + 0 some races you cannot do this with as you have to strip out everything that makes them what they are. However, so races you could. Hobgoblins for example are ecl +2 because they have unbalanced stats, this of course makes them unbalanced for pcs of 1st level. I fix this by making their stats balanced, then making them ecl + 0, orc, sea elves and several other +1 ecls should all be balanced to + 0, or are already + 0 IMO without balancing them. Also, another thing you could do is take away the starting feat, I balance bugbears who have a nat ac to +0 by taking their starting feat away with this they are balanced for first level use, of course I also take their natural hd away & make them 1st level classed characters.
Hope these ideas were of some help. |
Check out my reviews on youtube of Forgotten Realms and other rpg products. http://www.youtube.com/user/woodwwad?feature=mhum |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4427 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2010 : 08:47:36
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The way I make ECL creatures is usually taking away their Monster levels such as the 4 (or is it 5?) HD for Minotaurs. This reduces their BAB/Saves/Skills/Feats to that of a 1st level character.
But generally speaking LAs are not worth their spit compared to class levels. I can usually get away with a +1 LA like the Aasimar or Tiefling since they receive two +2 stat boosts (no negatives for the Tifeling, just stupid IMO) and special abilities like Darkvision, resistance to certain types of damage and a SLA. Definitly worth a +1 LA. And espically if they take a class which benefits their abilities (Aasimar Paladins are pretty awesome).
But I just start everyone off at level 1 like normal, and characters with a +1 just have a small boost at the beginning. When everyone gets level 2 the LA +1 stay where their at until they gain enough XP to get level 3. After that, it's all the same. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2010 : 06:42:49
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I like that idea. It's simple, and it works. I have a problem with one player who is always wanting to play "different" races, often with an unusual class to boot. I even had one who wanted to play a chain devil, and take racial levels! I'm pretty open-minded, but that's kinda overboard. I like your solution, and I agree that anything over +2 is too much. Some of the more powerful races just don't really fit into most games, anyway. Who wants the hassle of rp'ing the villagers' reaction to the hobgoblin spirit shaman who strolls into town with the party?
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The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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woodwwad
Learned Scribe
USA
267 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2010 : 09:16:34
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Oddly, I have a guy that posts on my site that mentioned a chain devil being something he thought would make a playible character. That really confused me, have no idea how you'd make that work as a DM, unless your game was just trash. I could even understand a half-fiend, not that I'd let someone play one but that gives you a whole human side that is totally not there with a chain devil. Chain devil, chain devil??? Chain Devil??? What is wrong with people??? ;)
I think a Hobgoblin player can make a fine pc though, but you really need a human player in the party to help offset him. |
Check out my reviews on youtube of Forgotten Realms and other rpg products. http://www.youtube.com/user/woodwwad?feature=mhum |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2010 : 16:50:43
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| I have a bugbear player who started out as a human. (S)He (can't remember the gender) died and was reincarnated as the bugbear. Then the bugbear, who was a rogue, got converted by the party paladin to his faith, and decided to become a paladin. I seem to get a lot of weird pc's in my games, like the gender-changing drow in the group (think Fiona from Shrek, but changing gender instead of race- long story). Must be the crowd I run with.... |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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playable races
