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Gellion
Learned Scribe
140 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Aug 2003 : 23:02:29
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What is your opinion on the current technology level in the realms? Do you think it should stay as it is? Or do you think it should advance some. When i say technology i do not mean magical technology, like what Eberron is going to have. But actual technology.
Also i have heard that due to the mass amount of magic on Toril, that a lot of technology does not work. Lets say this were not true, and technology would still work. Do you think it would advance any? Also do you think Smokepowder should be an alchemical substance instead of magical?
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"Paladine, you see the evil that surrounds me! You have been witness to the calamities that have been the scourge of Krynn... You must see now that this doctrine of balance will not work! I can sweep evil from this land. Destroy the ogre races. Bring the wayward humans into line! Find new homelands far away for the dwarves and the kender and the gnomes, those races not of your creation... I demand that you give me, too, the power to drive away the shadows of evil that darken the land!"- THE REIGN OF ISTAR, Tales IV |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2003 : 00:07:47
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Without the restriction of magic allowing technology to work then yes Technology would definitely advance. I think technology is fine where it is. I like my fantasy campaigns medieval, and I find that if you start allowing Cannons and Guns, the medieval life of the forgotten realms would be disrupted. The same as happened here. Castles would be obsolete, Armour would be obsolete, and eventually the world would be a bunch of people wielding Rapiers.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Malanthius
Learned Scribe
144 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2003 : 00:26:53
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It would be pretty interesting to find some isolated country or city state that was firmly leaning towards mechanical contrivances and such, or machine like magic effects. Sort of like a contrast to the rest of faerun, and maybe as a symbol to other nations why non-magical technology is such a bad idea.
Mal. |
"Oh, Do stop whining, It's not the End of the World. It's just the end of Your's." |
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Gellion
Learned Scribe
140 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2003 : 01:05:06
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| Why would you consider nonmagical technology a bad thing? |
"Paladine, you see the evil that surrounds me! You have been witness to the calamities that have been the scourge of Krynn... You must see now that this doctrine of balance will not work! I can sweep evil from this land. Destroy the ogre races. Bring the wayward humans into line! Find new homelands far away for the dwarves and the kender and the gnomes, those races not of your creation... I demand that you give me, too, the power to drive away the shadows of evil that darken the land!"- THE REIGN OF ISTAR, Tales IV |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2003 : 02:28:14
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Non magical technology is a bad thing for the forgotten realms because it throws off the balance of the realms. The realms has been a medieval level tech base for the last 10,000 years, why change it now. We are not talking real world ethics here. Technology is a good thing.
But for the realms real world tech, or non magic tech is a bad thing. It changes the realms completely from what it is and destroys the spirit of a fantasy campaign. If you wnat to merge sci fi with fantasy then by all means bring in tech. But I like my fantasy of a medieval style, so Cannons and such are just not allowed.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Gellion
Learned Scribe
140 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2003 : 03:04:42
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| Ehhh i am kinda of sick of Medieval fantasy. But i still love the Realms. Which is why i would not mind some nonmagical technology. |
"Paladine, you see the evil that surrounds me! You have been witness to the calamities that have been the scourge of Krynn... You must see now that this doctrine of balance will not work! I can sweep evil from this land. Destroy the ogre races. Bring the wayward humans into line! Find new homelands far away for the dwarves and the kender and the gnomes, those races not of your creation... I demand that you give me, too, the power to drive away the shadows of evil that darken the land!"- THE REIGN OF ISTAR, Tales IV |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2003 : 06:21:38
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| Well, if you want to run a campaign like that, go right ahead. Just because we don't want to use the idea ourselves doesn't mean that you shouldn't, should you want to. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2003 : 09:55:12
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This is uncanny. I was just having a private discussion (via ethereal mail) with another scribe here at Candlekeep about smokepowder weapons and the Mystara setting.
Needless to say this topic has been discussed before.
As for smokepowder being an alchemical instead of magical substance, well...that really all depends on how prolific you want firearms in your campaigns to be.
The Player's Option - Combat and Tactics states that for most DM's a simple rule normally works for most campaigns. Making the smokepowder an alchemical substance greatly increases the chance of nearly everyone having access to these weapons, making them readily available. If it is just a simple chemical process to create smokepowder, then any buyer with enough gold pieces could head on down to his local alchemist and have him mix up a batch of smokepowder, then head over to the blacksmith to craft a delivery device.
If on the other hand it remains a magical substance, the distribution of firearms is easier to control because, since only mages (who understand the delicate high-level incantations involved), and maybe gnome artificers can access the necessary magics in order to create the substance, the chances of these weapons being widely available lessens greatly.
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fanatic
Acolyte
Austria
34 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2003 : 19:23:21
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i donīt think technological advance to be a good thing in the realms.
i didnīt like it, when salvatore wrote about pirates using gunpowder in his novel Passage to Dawn.
may it be a magical or alchemical thing, i donīt like it.
as it was said it would give the realms a new face.
there was a historical battle when a hand full of (i think they were british) soldiers won against 5000 russian fighters.
the brits had splitter granades. no brithish soldier was killed no russian survived.
i donīt want such things happen in the realms.
if itīs a very powerful mage killing thousands and thousands itīs o.k.
it took him long enough to study.
if i want technology i open my eyes and look around.
if i want fantasy i donīt want to think about reality
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even fantasy has itīs limits
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Gellion
Learned Scribe
140 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2003 : 23:57:49
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I GUESS I AM ONE OF THE FEW PEOPLE WHO REALLY APPREACITES TECHNOLOGY, EVEN IN REAL LIFE.
I know that was in all caps, i am too lazy to change it. |
"Paladine, you see the evil that surrounds me! You have been witness to the calamities that have been the scourge of Krynn... You must see now that this doctrine of balance will not work! I can sweep evil from this land. Destroy the ogre races. Bring the wayward humans into line! Find new homelands far away for the dwarves and the kender and the gnomes, those races not of your creation... I demand that you give me, too, the power to drive away the shadows of evil that darken the land!"- THE REIGN OF ISTAR, Tales IV |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2003 : 05:06:58
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Oh, I'm all for technology. Even in some fantasies. You should see the stuff I write . . . I like transfer fantasies, and in some of mine my characters start doing all sorts of technological and sociological tweaking . . . .
I've got one where one guy falls into a world where the local government looks like Socrates' dream gone wrong. The character's got his work cut out for him, since he wants to at least give these people a choice in the matter. But everything's a rigid class structure, and almost nobody can even concieve of anything else.
For actual technology, I've another where some people are summoned to an alternate Earth, where all magic has been either forbidden or tightly controlled by most European countries, and most technology (such as steam engines or gunpowder) are considered magic as well. These people get summoned to one of only two countries that practice magic openly and freely, and they're about to be overrun by some other empires (that is, once they finish digesting some smaller countries in the way). They can't match their numbers, but my characters know that numbers are sometimes no match for brains. (In other words, 21st century military tactics and concepts. This also includes some magitech like APCs, ultralight aircraft, and the like.)
But this is only generally speaking. What you were asking was if we wanted to have high technology in the Realms. We just think it will mess up the feel of the setting, that's all. Nothing against mixes in the first place, just in this sort of situation. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2003 : 11:03:27
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Technology in the Realms......never! Some cultures of the Realms are already too advanced in my opinion.
MY Realms has no gunpowder, gas-lamps, steam-engines or any such technologies. Water-clocks are going a bit far too IMO. There is a danger of such leading into cultures like those of some Ravenloft domains, the Realms to me is strictly Dark Ages-Mediaeval.
I also recently read The Alabaster Staff, which featured a "match"! Now although the author has explained this was in error, I recently learnt (from our dear Bookwyrm, IIRC) that "tindertwigs" are the Realms "matches"...... NO NO NO! Tinderboxes and the old method is the only way 
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Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2003 : 12:37:11
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Bookwyrm said -
quote:
I've got one where one guy falls into a world where the local government looks like Socrates' dream gone wrong. The character's got his work cut out for him, since he wants to at least give these people a choice in the matter. But everything's a rigid class structure, and almost nobody can even concieve of anything else.
Any chance of hearing a little more about this story...perhaps in the ethereal... .
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2003 : 12:43:33
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As for technology in my Realms, well...alot of the influence of technological innovation comes directly from the increased exposure my Realms has to the planes. Well that, and the small clan of Tinker gnomes who have set up shop deep in the Shaar, after their Spelljamming version of the Miracle crashed on Toril.
Once the Tinker gnomes were removed from Krynn, placed on Toril (therefore having access to the planes) and directly exposed to the near-infinite technological potential of Mechanus, new technologies (whether they work or not) seem to come and go with increased speed since the gnomes appearance 7 years ago.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2003 : 01:50:34
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Not just in the Realms, Rad. It's a feature of Third Edition itself.
quote:
From The Player's Handbook, Third Edition:
Tindertwig: The alchemical substance on the end of this small, wooden stick ignites when struck against a rough surface. Creating a flame with a tindertwig is much faster than creating a flame with flint and steel (or a magnifying glass) and tinder. Lighting a torch with a tindertwig is a standard action (rather than a full-round action), and lighting any other fire with one takes at least a standard action.
I took one look at that and thought "No! Not more 'smokepowder'!" (After all, that 'alchemical substance' is really just a touch of gunpowder . . . .)
I just don't like that sort of thing in the Realms. Other fantasies, sure, but this one, no thanks.
quote:
Originally posted by Sage of Perth
Any chance of hearing a little more about this story...perhaps in the ethereal....
Heh! I KNEW that would get your attention!
I just started writing it one day after reading about Socrates' idea for the perfect government. Talk about a purely philosophical sort of governing system. The only one worse than that was Marx's dream. And the scary thing about this one, by the way, is that it's so easily turned against the people. Marx's idea just falls apart (communism didn't cause all the problems in the USSR or China or others; that often gets confused). Socrates' one wouldn't. But it would become the most tyranical (in the modern sense, not the ancient Greek one) government you've ever seen if it wasn't tightly controlled.
See, the problem Socretes had was that he was an endless optimist, just like Marx. Though Marx was a bit more universal in that aspect; Socretes didn't think all people were truly good and moral and unselfish. He just thought it would be possible to make a caste system that would ensure that only people like him -- the wise and good -- would rule. (Though if I recall corectly, he didn't want the job at all.)
In this story, it started out like that . . . but now it's all downhill. Everything is tightly controlled by the ruling class, and backed up by the warrior class. Even art is only encouraged along regular, predictable lines, and instead of religion it's a sort of perverted philosophy. Haven't developed that one much, but it's along the lines of "Don't make waves, stay in line, this is how the world works; as long as you work hard you move with nature, not against it." Might have a bit about karma and/or reincarnation. Haven't decided.
There is only one thing that doesn't obey the caste rules, and that's ki, the supernatural power that about one in five develop. It can be large or small, difficult or easy, useful or useless, and it doesn't care who your parents were. It develops at random times and in random people; some never have it until their old age is on them. It's the one thing the nobles can't control.
Well, that and this new guy on the scene . . . .
I'll send you a copy of my first few pages. Have to do some editing first, but it'll be what you're interested in; this guy's first views of this strange culture. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Gellion
Learned Scribe
140 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2003 : 04:16:41
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| Not necassarily high technology, but more advanced Such as having nonmagical clockwork constructs. Or other nonmagical clockwork inventions. |
"Paladine, you see the evil that surrounds me! You have been witness to the calamities that have been the scourge of Krynn... You must see now that this doctrine of balance will not work! I can sweep evil from this land. Destroy the ogre races. Bring the wayward humans into line! Find new homelands far away for the dwarves and the kender and the gnomes, those races not of your creation... I demand that you give me, too, the power to drive away the shadows of evil that darken the land!"- THE REIGN OF ISTAR, Tales IV |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2003 : 16:40:51
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Bookwyrm said -
quote:
Heh! I KNEW that would get your attention!
...Whatever do you mean...
Bookwyrm also said -
quote:
I'll send you a copy of my first few pages. Have to do some editing first, but it'll be what you're interested in; this guy's first views of this strange culture.
Definitely an interesting take. I will certainly enjoy reading what you have written. I have always found Socrates' ideas (pre-Plato dialogues) fascinating...if sometime bizarre...
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2003 : 20:06:35
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| I'll try to get it to you soon. Hopefully, it'll live up to your expectations. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2003 : 05:56:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Sage of Perth
Thanks .
Lookit that. Here we go conversing again . . . . |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Cult_Leader
Learned Scribe
USA
337 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2003 : 14:51:51
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Before you all get to far ahead of yourself I would liek to remind you all of Tinker-Gnomes  . If you remember correctly they sort of have their own lil country that uses nothing but normal teh, though their race has some magical abilities. In any case, DND unless it is a side realm etc, is based on a Mid-Evil time line, the Tech is just where it should be. Keeping in mind that the best tech comes from Tinker gnomes, then Gnomes, and then dwarves.... With an odd side race here and there that builds something worth having and using... though not often lol. Seige weapons are just fine... eh. Its all where it should be at. We dont need to see zombies with steam tanks on their backs running around being half machines after all do we? *ponders at that and darws up some ideas hehehe* Keep in mind if someone wants to add more Tech they are more then welcome, they might just have an NPC Cleric of Gong to travel in a parties group. Who knows. Another thing to keep in mind as I close this down is that fact that, YOU HAVE to remember theat with all normal tech their is an odd that it wont work the way you want and could hurt yourself as well. |
"Madness you say! Do you fear me? Are you afraid of what I might do, of what I might say? What a fascinating reaction. Don't you find it somewhat encumbering?"
Piddles assumes a deep and resonant voice. "Space...the Final Frontier. These are the voyages of the starship...Garou. It's mission: to slay Wyrm creatures where they live and breed. To accumulate more Garou than the world's entire population. To produce metis like no one has before." - Piddles
"Aren't you people supposed to be doing something? Like, entertaining me, the fascist wizard?" - InleRah
I have the passwords to the minds of everyone and the cheat codes to the universe - Me |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2003 : 09:29:24
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Mid-Evil? Is that sort of like Neutral Evil?
(Ducks lightning bolt) |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Cult_Leader
Learned Scribe
USA
337 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2003 : 17:04:13
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Best in the case theat their tech is higher then just about everyone elses... I mean think about it.... hover packs? Yeah ... not magical at all and just plainly built tech. However, im sure given some time that a Cleric of Gond could make something just as good.
*looks to book and shakes a fist* Meh I know I did that wrong should have been midevil? * sends a fire ball book's way* |
"Madness you say! Do you fear me? Are you afraid of what I might do, of what I might say? What a fascinating reaction. Don't you find it somewhat encumbering?"
Piddles assumes a deep and resonant voice. "Space...the Final Frontier. These are the voyages of the starship...Garou. It's mission: to slay Wyrm creatures where they live and breed. To accumulate more Garou than the world's entire population. To produce metis like no one has before." - Piddles
"Aren't you people supposed to be doing something? Like, entertaining me, the fascist wizard?" - InleRah
I have the passwords to the minds of everyone and the cheat codes to the universe - Me |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2003 : 04:34:29
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Obviously you have never really studied the Tinker Gnome Invention Mishap charts from DLA...
They clearly show that while Tinker Gnomes inventions may be the 'best' technology, they are constantly plagued by faults and problems that seem to prevent the technology from working properly.
I would say that for inventing the technologies, Tinker Gnomes will always be the masters, but for overall worthy technological devices that are stable and work well (consistantly), one must look to the clergy of deities of the forge, such as Reorx (DL) and Gond (FR).
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Cult_Leader
Learned Scribe
USA
337 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2003 : 17:54:10
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Im not sure which charts those are, but I would think you would have taken note that all the tech they make work JUST fine for Tinker Gnomes. When someone that is not a Tinker Gnome is when the faults come out to show themselves off. It is just like their magical ability to make thinks fall apart. One a few cases they make things expload like the stones they have. But in any case, there is a small mishap when a Tinker Gnome uses soemthing that is made for a tinker. Only non-Tinkers have bad luck.
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"Madness you say! Do you fear me? Are you afraid of what I might do, of what I might say? What a fascinating reaction. Don't you find it somewhat encumbering?"
Piddles assumes a deep and resonant voice. "Space...the Final Frontier. These are the voyages of the starship...Garou. It's mission: to slay Wyrm creatures where they live and breed. To accumulate more Garou than the world's entire population. To produce metis like no one has before." - Piddles
"Aren't you people supposed to be doing something? Like, entertaining me, the fascist wizard?" - InleRah
I have the passwords to the minds of everyone and the cheat codes to the universe - Me |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2003 : 06:28:50
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Cult_Leader said -
quote:
Im not sure which charts those are, but I would think you would have taken note that all the tech they make work JUST fine for Tinker Gnomes. When someone that is not a Tinker Gnome is when the faults come out to show themselves off. It is just like their magical ability to make thinks fall apart. One a few cases they make things expload like the stones they have. But in any case, there is a small mishap when a Tinker Gnome uses soemthing that is made for a tinker. Only non-Tinkers have bad luck.
That's not entirely correct. There have been some instances in both game modules and novels were Tinker-gnomes have expressed surprise when a particular invention did not develop any immediate problems, and hence worked well. Remember that one of the reasons why tinker-gnomes 'tinker' is because there is something inherently wrong with the invention, or something that could be improved.
Check out the gnome short story in one of the "Dragons of..." anthologies. That is a particular study case for this.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 31 Aug 2003 06:29:21 |
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Trafaldi
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2003 : 17:59:29
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| From the look of it none of you have even looked at the campaign settings. If youlook in the section on what you will recieve if you start out from a certain locale some give you, i believe, a horn of gunpowder, 20 bullets, and a pistol. Any type of pistol that i have seen in the campaign settings is a single shot pistol and they take forever to reload, by the time you get it reloaded your head is going to be lying on the ground. So there is already guns in Forgotten Realms. |
Some believe there is something more after death, if you really want to find out... go kill yourself and stop pestering me. |
Edited by - Trafaldi on 07 Sep 2003 18:00:12 |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2003 : 02:42:40
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| I have, at least. And I doubt any of us have made that sort of mistake. However, I believe this was more in the nature of whether it was a good idea or not, and how others viewed the subject. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Trafaldi
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2003 : 03:00:01
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| welll you have to consider that it is nearer top musketeer times (the Beginning) than the dark ages, and the realms is set in a time where technology is hard to come by because if somene has a pistol and someone has a wand of fireball the pistol is not going to be as accurate and it has a chance of misfiring and the by the time you have the problem figured you are already ashes, so because of magic making everything simpler technology is almost obsolete. |
Some believe there is something more after death, if you really want to find out... go kill yourself and stop pestering me. |
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Technology in the Realms
