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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Jul 2009 : 01:49:14
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I wanted to start a discussion on Hesperdan and "what" or "who"
he is. Reading the replys on the forums and after what I've read
in the Knights trilogy, I came up with these ideas. Please join
the discussion with you ideas.
The Hooded One has stated a couple of different times that we
haven't seen the last of Hesperdan in print (most likely). But I
wanted to start this one anyway.
1)Hesperdan is a construct created by Elminster to serve as
a winnowing tool among the Zhents. Sort of like the bodies
he created for Sylune during the Shadows trilogy. Put into a box
until he needs to prune somebody and teleports it to where ever he
needs it.
2)Hesperdan is a construct created by a mirror of opposition
or a mirror of entrapment. With the mirror of opposition, we
see that he seems to be in the novels the exact opposite in
behavior than Elminster, except for the need to manipulate behind
the scenes. Was powerful and intelligent enough to escape the need
to destroy Elminster and just ran.
3)Hesperdan is a clone created by Bane to serve as a counter
to Elminster, using cells from Elminster's body from any one
of a number of encounters where he got hurt and left body
parts over the battlefield. Gets all of Elminster's abilities
and understandings without the Chosen of Mystra abilities.
4)Hesperdan is an altered member of one of the main casters of the
mythal in Myth Drannor. Part of one of the first two circles. I can
provide the names later if anybody needs to see them. See the 2nd Knights novels why this made the list.
5)Hesperdan is just a guy that knows how to make potions of longevity,
stays behind the scenes all the time, is a monster spellcaster by
self made ability, and is just lucky enough to be somewhere else when
Elminster shows up. I don't think its this one.
Discuss.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2009 : 02:59:11
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| I actually would favor the last explanation, myself. The Realms has enough drekkin'-powerful mages that I see no reason to assume that any particular one has any kind of divine or magical origin that's not been previously hinted out. Occam's razor and all that. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2009 : 03:16:35
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I've not settled on any particular theory.
I do have some ideas for my own Realms, but as it stands, currently, I still like Ed's theory on Elminster actually BEING Hesperdan. And that it is El's wish to use the Herperdan personae to create instability within the network of the Zhentarim -- when necessary. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2009 : 03:45:50
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I suppose the question to ask is, where was Hesperdan while Elminster was in his safehold during the Spellplague Years? If Hesperdan is indeed still around *after* the Spellplague, then where he was *during* it will tell us much, no?  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2009 : 04:11:26
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Sage,
I thought that in his threads Ed has stated that
Elminster and Hesperdan are not one in the same.
I'll go back and research and see if I am wrong.
Jaxx,
I really don't think that Hesperdan in $ed is
a story that we will see. Doing away with all
rich history and all that.
Fuzzy Rodent,
What's the razor? I've never seen that phase. |
Edited by - althen artren on 20 Jul 2009 04:14:47 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2009 : 04:33:53
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quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
Sage,
I thought that in his threads Ed has stated that
Elminster and Hesperdan are not one in the same.
I'll go back and research and see if I am wrong.
From Ed, in Jan '06:-
"You’re very, very welcome, George. As always. I salute you as a tireless Lorelord of the Realms, rescuing us all time and time again.
As to why “How Wisdom Came To The Maimed Wizard” made you think Elminster has been masquerading as Hesperdan (or may be Hesperdan)? Must be the very broad hints I wrote into it.
I’ll keep to hinting rather than confirming outright, but someone dwelling in the Realms who attended certain Magefairs would insist that El and Hesperdan are two separate people (because they were seen in the same place at the same time, though not actually standing and talking together). Which of course strengthens the “masquerading as” possibility (the other weakening further when one considers how hard it would be to do all that El does and still have time to put in any appearances as Hesperdan at all: a Zhent whose survival may well be imperilled, in such an authoritarian organization, by unexplained absences). Which in turn raises the why (exactly) is Elminster adopting the guise of Hesperdan, and also HOW is he managing it (is Hesperdan in cahoots with him? Under his total domination? Can be subsumed mentally, as El “takes over” the body, due to some already-cast spell or curse or . . .?
We just don’t know. Yet. I can let slip that Hesperdan has an important future role to play, but we may not see much of it “onstage,” as it were.
Which should leave a lot of scribes going: Hmmm.
Which is as good a place as any to take my leave. :}
So saith Ed. Slyly bailing old dog that he is.
Oh, yes: he hasn’t forgotten that Gerath Hoan asked about Hesperdan, too, and hopes G - H will see from this reply that for the nonce Ed can’t be more specific about the mysterious Hesperdan . . .
love,
THO" |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2009 : 05:27:53
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quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
Fuzzy Rodent,
What's the razor? I've never seen that phase.
It's an old saying, "entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity." Or as it's more commonly simplified: "the simplest answer is usually the correct one." |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2009 : 13:48:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
I suppose the question to ask is, where was Hesperdan while Elminster was in his safehold during the Spellplague Years? If Hesperdan is indeed still around *after* the Spellplague, then where he was *during* it will tell us much, no?
Perhaps Hesperdan was the safehold during the Spellplague years?
What if El was in the Hesperdan guise when the Spellplague struck and he was 'trapped' like that for 80 or 90 years? Hmm? |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2009 : 07:51:36
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I had a very hard to spot Hesperdan reference in my Semmemmon DRAGON magazine article that unfortunately got edited out as the editor clearly thought that the sentence in question was wholly useless window dressing. It was - but not to a very keen-eyed Realms scholar.
Hesperdan has always been a very big "???" in my FR musings so I look forward to what Ed can reveal about this person (?) in time to come.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2009 : 15:57:28
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I think Hesperdan has/had a deal with Elminster, and that they are NOT the same person (#5).
The way I see it, Hesperdan is a VERY powerful spelllcaster who also happens to be a Planeswalker... he may not even be of Torillian origin (or human, for that matter). I think that he and El met - probably one of those times when El went to 'look into' an Archmage he caught wind of - an Hesperdan was experienced and wiley enough to recognoze the Old Mage for what he was and what he was doing... and the two chose to become friends, rather then do battle (I'm assuming the two weren't all that different, and Hesperdan may even be an alternate prime world's 'Elminster').
The two archmages may have very different approaches, but in the end they are both after the same thing - the furthering of magic, and the accumulation of magics for themselves (the first lending itself to the second). If you think about it, Hesperdan uses the Zentarrim much the same way Elminster uses the Harpers - an information-gathering network to keep tabs on magic and persons of power.
However, despite the very obvious similarities to the two, I still prefer they are seperate beings, and I imagine that a deal was struck wherein he informs El of when he is going to be 'away' for extended periods of time, allowing Elminster to take his place (which is mutually beneficial). As I said, I picture Hesperdan being an avid Planeswalker (where he manages to aquire quite a bit of magic not known elsewhere in the Realms), and he needs someone to fill-in for him from time to time.
By the same token, it may just be that when El plans to be away for extended periods (he, too, dabbles in planes-hopping), he asks Hesperdan to take his place, or at least be seen as him here and there about the Realms.
This could also lead to Hesperdan or Elminster being seen in two places at once... which is just fine, because it adds to the mystery and mystique of both (and like I said, they are of 'like mind' when it comes to keeping folks guessing).
I also think that only Lhaeo (sp?) knows the truth, because he would have to cover any mistakes made by the false version. The Simbul may know... but somehow, I think El would like to keep some secrets even from her.
The only 'hole' in this theory, as I see it, is that they should also be able to summon each other somehow in a dire emergency (a death contingency, when all-else fails). If that is the case, and the two are really as 'close' as I assume, then why wasn't Hesperdan mentioned at all in Elminster in Hell? If he were a real, seperate individual, and not just Elminster in disquise, I would think he should have made an appearance amonst those that were 'contacted' (not all of whom responded, like the weasel Vangerdehast).
On the other hand, perhaps he was... there's nothing to say that Hesperdan isn't a 'shared' persona by several Archmages.
It wouldn't surprise me at all if Halaster played the role occassionally himself. 
Just my musings on the subject... nothing more... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Jul 2009 16:01:15 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2009 : 00:01:12
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| My hat is off to Ashe and Markustay, who have given us a multitude of possible theories... possibly including the correct one, or even one that Ed likes better than the heretofore "correct" one, causing a change in Hesperdan's identity before it is discovered... in any case, I love this kind of speculation. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2009 : 01:30:01
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Unless I'm completely mistaken or misremembering, there's a scene (in 'Crown of Fire'?) in which a blind and dying Zhentarim soldier calls Elminster 'Lord', and I always assumed there was more to it than just Elminster's impersonating a Zhent wizard... of course, I may be wrong, but to me it felt like this soldier actually *recognised* Elminster's voice as belonging to a high-ranked Zhent wizard lord (Hesperdan, perhaps?).
Maybe I'm just being paranoid? |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2009 : 02:29:35
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Paranoia has done nothing but save lives... and maybe end a few more pre-emptively. Okay, so being paranoid isn't always a good idea, but it's often justified...  |
Edited by - Jakk on 22 Jul 2009 02:30:18 |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2011 : 00:20:33
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Sorry to bring this old post back from the dead, but I'm just reading the Knights trilogy book 2 now and Hesperdan is a key character. I know he was also in Hand of Fire...the lore on him is so sparse, does anyone have an update on Hesperdan or is this thread the most info collected?
I think he is one of the Chosen if not Elminster in disguise. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2011 : 03:04:55
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| All I know of Hesperdan is what I read in The Sword Never Sleeps. Hesperdan seemed very much like an agent of Bane to me, and I got the distinct impression that he's a doppleganger, simulacrum, or Alias-styled automaton. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2011 : 03:28:21
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| I don't want this resolved. Cruise me cruise me cruise me baby. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2011 : 06:05:35
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| He is in Ed's short story in Realms of the Dead: The Many Murders of Manshoon... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 05 Sep 2011 06:06:00 |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2011 : 01:12:32
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| Ooh will have to pick up that Realms of...I'm so behind in my short story readings. I have read about a quarter of Realms of Valor only! |
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Idamar of Thay
Acolyte
19 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2011 : 00:59:34
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I believe that Hesperdan is a construct created by Elminster to keeps tabs on Zhentil Keep. Here's why.
1 : Being the most hostile and closest enemy of the Dales, his home, it would only make sense to have a means to keep an eye on them. Throwing far scrying spells seem inneficient. Having someone present to interact with the Zentharim is much better.
2 : In Ed's short story on the rise of Manshoon and Fzoul in the Best of the Realms book (I forget the story's exact title), Elminster shows he knows a few Zhents personally ands seems very informed of their daily affairs.
3 : The oddest part about Hesperdan is that he is this powerful wizard that most of the Zhentarim respects...yet he's not in any apparent position of power. I think that fits perfectly with a construct left in a closet somewhere when Elminster doesn't use it. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2011 : 16:05:20
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| I concur with you Idamar, that's certainly plausible! With the spellplague 4th edition jump I'm not sure that this will be resolved or if he remains. (I actually don't even know of any of the Zhentarim status except Manshoon being what he is now in the Elmister Must Die series). |
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Hesperdan musings...
