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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Nov 2008 : 23:10:48
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What's the story with this dude? He was arguably the #2 Paladin (behind Gareth Dragonbane)in Toril yet has he ever been depicted as the main protagnist in a Forgotten Realms Novel? For such a popular character class, they rarely seem show up in the novels. I wonder why? Perhaps it's considered too cliche? I always thought it would be cool to have a Cambion (or other evil outsider) somehow become a paladin - that would be an interesting twist...
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 01:16:59
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
What's the story with this dude? He was arguably the #2 Paladin (behind Gareth Dragonbane)in Toril yet has he ever been depicted as the main protagnist in a Forgotten Realms Novel? For such a popular character class, they rarely seem show up in the novels.
If you read enough novels, you come across more than a few paladins. As for why Piergeiron is never the protagonist in a novel? Well, ever since novels about the FR started being published, they have mostly taken place in the present, and Piergeiron's days of being an adventurer are behind him now.
There is no #1, #2 paladin on Toril, etc., characters are not and should not be ranked in such a way.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 02:07:26
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quote:
There is no #1, #2 paladin on Toril, etc., characters are not and should not be ranked in such a way.
I have to disagree with you there. The novels all but confirm it, each class has its own little numero uno. Bard? Falconhand. Wizard? Elminster. Sword fighter? Drizzt (course, these will most likely change in 4th ed.). You could also define them as the most successful, the most prolific, etc. If not Paladinson, then whom?
And of course, the CRs in the texts just back it up. So I think this is a fairly good question, considering the nature of the aforementioned 'rankings', at least as far as level of power concerned.
I would guess that there are several reasons why Paladinson gets left out of the pages. First of all, not all of the classes are represented by a popular character starring in his or her own series(the afore-mentioned Falconhand was never a plot-driver, I can't think of any monks leading the way either...maybe Danica...). The paladin class just hasn't had any representatives catch on like that.
Moreso, however, I would imagine that in a world where the most popular characters are assassins, good-natured drow, warm-hearted clerics of Mask and ultra-crabby wizards with shifty pasts, an ultra-good, ultra-dedicated paladin just isn't well...fun to read. Or write for that matter. The most fun I've had reading about a paladin in the Realms was Corrinthal in the Twilight War Trilogy and well...we know how that came out.  |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
Edited by - Arion Elenim on 05 Nov 2008 02:09:43 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 02:16:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
I have to disagree with you there. The novels all but confirm it, each class has its own little numero uno. Bard? Falconhand. Wizard? Elminster. Sword fighter? Drizzt (course, these will most likely change in 4th ed.). You could also define them as the most successful, the most prolific, etc. If not Paladinson, then whom?
And of course, the CRs in the texts just back it up. So I think this is a fairly good question, considering the nature of the aforementioned 'rankings', at least as far as level of power concerned.
-No, she's fully right.
-And, if you're going to cite examples, at least use the right examples  . Cylyria Dragonbreast would be the top Bard, Shoon VII would be the top Wizard (Karsus, if we're not going to be contemporary), and Abordabe would be the top among the Fighters. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 05 Nov 2008 02:17:34 |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 03:11:40
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| - With such an argument, one can only reply, 'touche'. :) |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 14:54:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
Sword fighter? Drizzt (course, these will most likely change in 4th ed.).
Ed has actually in a reply in his thread listed a bunch of fighters who are better than Drizzt. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 17:45:15
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| Well, that's why I used the term sword fighter instead of fighter...it's relative. But I think we can all agree he's tops when it comes to fighterrangerbarbarians right? :D |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 17:58:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
Well, that's why I used the term sword fighter instead of fighter...it's relative. But I think we can all agree he's tops when it comes to fighterrangerbarbarians right? :D
-Probably not. By 3e terms, Abordabe'd probably be a Fighter/Barbarian, or a Ranger/Barbarian. He's a Nar tribesman, the most powerful one, at that. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 05 Nov 2008 17:59:01 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 18:54:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
I have to disagree with you there. The novels all but confirm it, each class has its own little numero uno.
Eh, not really--especially since novels (and other published sources) show us only the tip of the iceberg with regards to the setting. For example, the most powerful paladin in the Realms, level-wise, could be a loner who deliberately tries not to call attention to himself. It could be someone's PC.
quote:
And of course, the CRs in the texts just back it up.
Even with Drizzt, who "only" has a CR of 18? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 05 Nov 2008 18:55:50 |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 19:59:04
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Well, out of curiousity's sake, who trumps him except for Artemis? Even if Greenwood has amended the 'list', the very fact that he did so says that well....there IS a list to begin with.
But, to get back on topic, being ridiculously powerful doesn't guarantee a character their own story - I don't really care to read the Dendar the Night Serpent Trilogy.
Wait....*being scribbling notes furiously*...."One day Dendar the Night Serpent woke up cranky and hungry....." |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 20:20:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
Well, out of curiousity's sake, who trumps him except for Artemis? Even if Greenwood has amended the 'list', the very fact that he did so says that well....there IS a list to begin with.
And Ed was quick to mention, if I recall correctly, that the rankings done according to his own opinion could change at any time and weren't set in stone (and even though what Ed says is "canon", there were a few disclaimers at the beginning of the list, such as how "best swordsman" was being defined).
On top of that, Drizzt was NOT ranked as the number one swordsman, or Artemis for that matter. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 05 Nov 2008 20:21:03 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 21:01:15
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Piergeiron appears in CITY OF SPLENDORS, the novel Ed and Elaine wrote together, and Rino is quite right: his adventuring days are behind him, hence he doesn't feature as a protagonist (as most Realms novels are written for youngish readers to identify with a youngish protagonist).
I also come down on the "please don't bother ranking chracters," because we've seen so few of the vast cast of characters Ed created for the Realms (to say nothing of other authors and all DMs) detailed properly. Besides, how does one "rank" a paladin? Rulership attained? Influence? Most deities would probably rank paladins in terms of dedication to holy service and achievements, which would mean most mortals would have NO IDEA who the "top" paladins really were (as "service" to many deities would have nothing much to do with rulership or influence attained, and might not even be recognized as "service" by a worshipper of another deity, at all [Tempus equating service very differently than Eldath, for example]. Setting scribes to arguing about rankings is pretty futile given how uneven and full of gaps our collective lore knowledge of the Realms is. I know that's been Ed's answer to several TSR and WotC designers wanting to know "who's the most powerful/baddest/best" over the years.
love to all,
THO |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 21:26:59
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
wanting to know "who's the most powerful/baddest/best" over the years.
love to all,
THO
If your talking scribes then that would be me!  |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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AlorinDawn
Learned Scribe
USA
313 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 21:39:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
quote:
There is no #1, #2 paladin on Toril, etc., characters are not and should not be ranked in such a way.
I have to disagree with you there. The novels all but confirm it, each class has its own little numero uno. Bard? Falconhand. Wizard? Elminster. Sword fighter? Drizzt (course, these will most likely change in 4th ed.). You could also define them as the most successful, the most prolific, etc. If not Paladinson, then whom?
And of course, the CRs in the texts just back it up. So I think this is a fairly good question, considering the nature of the aforementioned 'rankings', at least as far as level of power concerned.
I would guess that there are several reasons why Paladinson gets left out of the pages. First of all, not all of the classes are represented by a popular character starring in his or her own series(the afore-mentioned Falconhand was never a plot-driver, I can't think of any monks leading the way either...maybe Danica...). The paladin class just hasn't had any representatives catch on like that.
Moreso, however, I would imagine that in a world where the most popular characters are assassins, good-natured drow, warm-hearted clerics of Mask and ultra-crabby wizards with shifty pasts, an ultra-good, ultra-dedicated paladin just isn't well...fun to read. Or write for that matter. The most fun I've had reading about a paladin in the Realms was Corrinthal in the Twilight War Trilogy and well...we know how that came out.
To echo what THO and others said, (not that she needs my echo), there's no real way to rank these folks. It's like saying rank the top military solider in the world...top at what?
Drizzt is far down the list on most capable sword swinger in the Realms according to Ed. I'm sure that Ed would agree that just when you think you're the best at X, as in the real world, you abruptly find someone much bigger and badder at whatever X might be. Spellslingers and swordsmen included.
As for the CR's backing up who is the baddest. You can be CR 30 and lead a force of 100 and be stompped into the dust by an opponent that is is a far lower CR who leads several thousand. |
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Thalos_Milathriel
Acolyte
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 01:30:57
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| Piergeiron is one of the main characters in the Double Diamond Triangle novella "The Diamond". I picked these up on Ebay awhile back and just got around to reading the first one. The entire nine part series revolves around the rescue of Paldinson's kidnapped bride, so I'm sure he figures prominently in at least one of the others as well. |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 02:57:57
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So...then every character in the Forgotten Realms is exactly as strong and as disciplined and as successful as everyone else?
As far as gaming goes, yes, I am aware that there is a chance the average low level fighter can defeat Drizzt (David and Goliath, Bard and Smaug, etc). It's kind of the core of the system...I think.
I am also aware that there's always someone better than the next guy in the world. However, on the other hand I'm also as aware of the fact that there are dangers when comparing the novels with the game stats as I am of the fact we don't game in said real world, and conveniently, the designers gave us a nifty little rating system to say EXACTLY how strong or successful or disciplined an NPC is, so I don't think anyone is committing any cardianal sins by taking that into account while considering why a character gets 'ignored' in Realmslore after said designers went to such lengths to outfit them with a vast array of abilities. |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
Edited by - Arion Elenim on 06 Nov 2008 02:59:47 |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 13:45:50
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Hey guys. I didn't mean to start controversy. My ranking of the Paladinson was based solely on reputation/popularity. When you think Paladins in the Forgotten Realms, IMO he is one of the first two or three that might come to mind. Similiar to Elminster for wizards or Drizzit for Rangers. I just thought it was strange that he seems so elusive in the books.
Arion thats for your response. Even though I wasn't snecesarily talking about "expertise" or "power" I don't see why it's necessarily a bad thing to ask a question about here. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 14:44:28
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
Arion thats for your response. Even though I wasn't snecesarily talking about "expertise" or "power" I don't see why it's necessarily a bad thing to ask a question about here.
And no one's saying it's a "bad" question to ask. We're just saying that trying to answer such a question is like arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 06 Nov 2008 14:45:01 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 14:54:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
Arion thats for your response. Even though I wasn't snecesarily talking about "expertise" or "power" I don't see why it's necessarily a bad thing to ask a question about here.
And no one's saying it's a "bad" question to ask. We're just saying that trying to answer such a question is like arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
Or who'd win in a fight, Superman or Captain Marvel?
(Don't even include Batman in the question, he can kick everyone's butt... ) |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 15:15:33
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| Instead of saying he is the #1 or 2 Paladin in Faerun, it might be far to say the most well known. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 15:16:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
Arion thats for your response. Even though I wasn't snecesarily talking about "expertise" or "power" I don't see why it's necessarily a bad thing to ask a question about here.
And no one's saying it's a "bad" question to ask. We're just saying that trying to answer such a question is like arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
How big is the pin? |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 15:18:47
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
How big is the pin?
*laughs* Who knows--that's the whole point. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2008 : 04:34:33
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There's a suggestion that, like druids, paladins are something of an old-fashioned rearguard in the society and culture of Faerūn being outrun by rising urban and mercantile power. They also don't meld too well with the Realms' primarily humanist sword-and-sorcery literary background, and they don't work the best as part of mixed groups. Instead, the Realms' most popular lone hero has something of a paladin's ethos in a more 'modern' shell. As has been noted, many authors don't particularly empathize with 'righteous' servants to religious authority, and a few have thus written paladins as doing things which would actually annul their paladinhood immediately.
Of the various last-generation heroes in Waterdeep's government, Ed of course most wants to write about Mirt and Durnan, who head the long queue of characters to get their due in fiction, and no one else happens to have found an affinity with Piergeiron like Elaine and Steven did with Khelben.
We can be grateful that the 'iconic character' swindle wasn't in fact applied so broadly as to seek nonsense exemplars for every class. |
Edited by - Faraer on 07 Nov 2008 04:37:07 |
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Piergeiron the Paladinson
